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One tell tale sign of someone with a very weak point of view, is when they have to censor the opposing viewpoint. You can’t even rebuke one “troll”?

@Fred Orth: Yep, you are right the Libyans pulled some strings (oil) to get his release.  Can’t blame the British government for looking after its national interests (access to Libyan oil reserves).

When push comes to shove all governments put national interest first.  However the Libyans seem to have got carried away and their welcome home party with Scottish flags waving by Libyans has left a bad taste.

[[About Lockerbie. Rendez-vous avec X.
“C’est un véritable rebondissement ! La Libye ne serait sans doute pas impliquée dans l’attentat contre le Boeing 747 qui a explosé en 1988 au-dessus de l’Ecosse, à Lockerbie exactement… Ce que disait déjà Monsieur X en 1998. Aussi, je vous propose de réécouter intégralement cet enregistrement. Mais d’abord, j’ai demandé à mon interlocuteur pourquoi l’agent secret libyen, qui était considéré jusqu’à aujourd’hui comme le principal instigateur de cet acte terroriste qui a provoqué la mort de 270 personnes, sera rejugé et peut-être innocenté…”]]
 
Ce serait un énorme embarras pour la communauté internationale, pas que l’Ecosse, mais il semble bien qu’on s’achemine quand même vers ce dénouement.

Regarding Lockerbie:
Time will tell if deals were indeed arranged between Britain (Scotland) and Libya for the release of the Lockerbie bomber; meanwhile, the scent of petroleum fumes remains sharply in the nose  of many Americans  found directly and indirectly affected by the bombing. We know those among us who  suffer the most will never have  their fill in the sense of a thirst for justice  —that being aborted by the actions of theScottish Minister. Perhaps we should come to realize that the action taken by the Minister more properly rests under diplomacy of a “type”; moreover, a type registered for the British under the label,  Perfidious Albion,  by  Roman occupiers during their 400 yr. stay of the island. 
The call for a boycott of Scottish goods in this country would make no impression; inasmuch, being the derivation of many of it’s citizens, still recognizable in the flesh.  Make no mistake,  British Isle descendants –English, Irish, Scots, Welsh– consciously or unconsciously, more or less,  consider the other as “brethren” when the status quo of their likes and dislikes are seen to be “threatened” .  Christian Fundamentalist Religion is seen to best typify this fixed mentality ( we recognize, of course, their oft-expressed dislike if not hatred of  the other in the old country).

This is not the first time western countries have made shameful deals which resulted in the release of terrorists.  Germany and France to name a few have done it and it is also known that some European countries pay ransom money to get their citizens freed from Somali pirates. 

Those who express holier than thou attitudes towards the British over this Libyan affair seem to have a very short memory.

^^
because the “scotch-bashing” is coming primarily from the evil French and Germans ?

[:facepalm]

There is no ethnicity called “Scotch”,  maybe you were referring to Scotch whisky?   Well, who knew people felt so strongly about a drink. LOL

#127
Yeah because that’s what really matters, trollie.
The troll is down to correcting grammar errors now. Ans it fails once again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_%28adjective%29
[ However, ‘Scotch’ is still in occasional use in England and Ireland, and common use in North America.
1965, the historian A. J. P. Taylor, wrote: “Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves Scots and their affairs Scottish. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is Scotch, just as we call les français the French and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it.[3] Preface to English History 1914–1945]

“And yes the Brits ran as fast as the French after the initial humiliation inflicted on the Allies by the German army but the only difference was that the Brits had somewhere to run to whereas that was pretty much it for the French in France.”
Not exactly true Barny – France had overseas colonies and could have continued to fight the Germans from there. In fact, the prime minister of the time Paul Reynaud wanted to fight on, but other political figures chose not too however and surrended during the mass panic.
I agree that it is wrong to mock “French cowardice” in this day and age, but the French leadership hardly covered themselves in glory during this period. 
Denigrating the British for “running away” however, isn’t really correct and won’t do your cause any favours AT ALL. Of course, the Channel helped Britain as it has saved us against other agressive forces like Napolean and the Spanish Armada.
I respect you right to fight against “French bashing” but don’t criticise the British and suggest that we would have surrended if it wasn’t for the Channel. Nobody knows what would have happened and Britain had a very large empire at that point that could have continued to fight the Germans.

Keep your lectures to yourself, my “friend”.

You people throw at us half truths and histrionics constantly. I do the same in return.
You don’t wanna to be offended then lecture your people not to start the bashing.

Christ, what rock did Fred (midwest) crawl out from.
His stream of conciousness ramblings would be hilarious if they weren’t so inaccurate. Where to start?
The battle of Britain was an air show:  No, it was crucial to the course of the war, if the UK had lost then Germany would have gained control of UK air space and then would have tried to invade. At that point we were the only western allied country left standing.
23,000 civilians were killed, 32,000 injured, 550 allied airmen killed and 2,000 RAF planes destroyed.  It was also important in that it caused  a shift in American opinion in that before many in the US thought that the UK could not survive An air show?! Please…
Britain was not guaranteed American support in 1939 when the UK evacuated Dunkirk with over 200,00 allied troops including 120,000 FRENCH troops.  This evacuation mainly being caused by the ineptitude of the French generals .
In fact, the USA did not join the war until 1941 and this was despite the majority of the American public being against it.
This [DO NOT CONFUSE COMMENT SECTION WITH SITE] is pathetic. Fighting suposedly anti-French comments by propagating lies and half-truths about the British and denigrating the bravery of the British government  which in the main wanted to fight Germany and the British service men.
I understand what you trying to do, but you are going about it in the WRONG WAY.

Trollie got some reinforcement, it seems.

There’s still a possibility they’re the same person but our new friend seems to have a better command of the English language.

[[This [DO NOT CONFUSE COMMENT SECTION WITH SITE] is pathetic. Fighting suposedly anti-French comments by propagating lies and half-truths about the British and denigrating the bravery of the British government  which in the main wanted to fight Germany and the British service men.
I understand what you trying to do, but you are going about it in the WRONG WAY.]]

Supposedly, huh ?
Damn you guys aren’t even trying anymore. What happened to subtlety ?

And what are you doing to fight French-bashing except for posting on an anti French-bashing blog to try and discredit the cause ?

It’s half truth and lies when it’s about the British/Americans but 100% truth and valid criticism when it’s about the French, right ?
Of course, massa.

Who can’t take criticism again ?

Well, here’s the old “we’re all allies” guy back to reinterate that 1) We ARE ALLIES and we should not bash France, the UK or the United States. 2) The issue here is French bashing since , oh say, 2000. WWII is old history, but it does seem to be the source of a lot of the bashing, so let’s keep our points relivent to reflection back, not fighting it again. 3) Criticism should only address individual or governmental statements, videos (which I can’t hear) or slurs – NOT NATIONS.
This, of course, is only my opinion.

Americans, justifiably outraged by the Scottish Minister’s abortion of justice in the Lockerbie bomber’s release, will find scant relief in the perspective offered by our trollie, Sharon, to the effect that “everybody does it” ; i.e., make the payoff that secures release of their national.  The fact that the Lockerbie bomber was a convicted felon, most deserving of his sentence  –most nations would have executed him– bears no resemblance to those innocent hostages seen taken and held for ransom. The Somali pirates, certain politically inspired groups in South America 
and elsewhere, typify the latter . . . . . . and that’s “O. K.”  –ransom being paid to effect their freedom.  Since 2 + 2 still equals 4,  the  rationale
espoused by Sharon is, for lack of a better word, moral rot; indeed, without justice you have nothing  (has  this woman been binging on haggis ? ).
To Barney and to Fred Orth:
Thanks for your succinct comments.  You guys are welcome to the grognard ranks.

Nice blog. I’ve been reading it occasionally for a while now.
Somewhat stormy discussion sometimes but that’s what happens when such topics are raised inforums. People will throw rocks at each other even when they (almost) agree on most things. Not that it happened this much in your columns though.
Back to Doug Stanhope and this nice video. It corroborates lots of things that may be noticed in field. I have been working in international business for 10 years and both US and French (and others too but I’m trying to stick to this blog’s storyline) partners seem to grow more knowledgeable of each other (be it on cultural levels, historical levels, and not solely WWII, mind you, and so on) month after month. Call me an overoptimistic poor devil but things change and, if I agree with Miquelon’s “long tail” theory and reckon with France’s (Europe ?) share of anti-americanism, I also observe a very positive trend of mutual respect that might save us after all.
Want to get rid of cliches ? Take part in international meetings and actually meet people from other countries face to face, you’ll be overwhelmed with newly gained knowledge and possibly wisdom (although I’m not at all claiming to be wise, ask my wife). For enriching it is to discuss Borat with a guy from Kazakhstan (and discover he’s 5 years ahead of time technology and business strategy wise), WWII and National socialist propaganda (is it Godwin again ?) with young German managers, 1950’s Hollywood propaganda and the Marshall plan’s contribution to US subsequent domination with my good friend Ian from Seattle, etc. etc.
There will always be bashers, may this site and others contribute to shift their hate-filled undocumented (and probably time-consuming) speeches into intelligible constructive debates.
This moment of optimism and pure merriment is brought to you for free. Enjoy. And keep up the good work.

You seem to have good things to say about others but only critical remarks  about the USA ” hollywood propaganda & Marshall plans contribution to US domination”.

So I am afraid since you didn’t practise what you preach, your sermon will fail on deaf ears. Now how about discussing “care packages” with those young German managers.

I come into contact with a lot of Europeans in my line of work and thankfully the majority of them don’t have the bile displayed by some over here.  But I would be careful about swallowing wholeheartedly everything they say, Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc.  Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense. 

So whats new?
Big M’s response to Fred Midwest’s diatribes get  a slap on the wrist while Big M & Barney can spew insults and name calling with impunity.

@BigM
I am rather enjoying Fred Midwest’s Rush Lumbugh impersonation.
It is quite entertaining. Leave him alone. LOL

To the BigM:
Forget it, Pommy, Hitler never entertained any serious notion of invading Britain.  Have you read Mein Kampf , wherein it was spelled out that the British Empire need only step-aside in “My Battle”; indeed, his plans for a 1, ooo yr. Reich entailed co-existence with the potential rival, living in peace, side by side (Hitler had a great admiration for Shakespeare, believing his works to be the embodiment of Aryan (German) genius; moreover, the Anglo-Saxon upper-class element of Britain could surely be brought around, he figured, having common blood-ties to their counterparts  in Germany [we note the Duke of Windsor’s exile to Burmuda during the war, it being feared his sympathies would further infect the rather “chancy” situation in Britain]). 
550 airmen killed ( Company A & Company B ? ) you say; so, not an insignificant number being foreign nationals   –principally Poles.  Sadly enough, these same Poles were “treated like dirt” by the British at the war’s ending.  Look it up, facts are facts.
You talk about a shift in American public opinion stemming from
British-made efforts in the air.  Difficult to say, keeping in mind Roosevelt’s on-going, game-playing  in support of British interests at the time.  As mentioned earlier, Roosevelt  was anglophilic to the core and we must look back to James Madison to find an American President so close to being treasonous. One other point: Weather patterns (English weather) precluded the Germans from continuing on with their air strikes in the so-called Battle of Britain; this, as they were gaining the ascendancy. It has been said that two more weeks would have finished the job.  Mother Nature is fickle.
Hitler’s confrontations with the British, such as they were, could be likened to a rivalry of street “punks” ; or, who would stand “first” in the neighborhood. Each presumed to carry a big stick though not entirely assured as to his prowess. It was to develope that in passing by each other on the city sidewalk, a “bumping” of the shoulders occured, each party not sure if the contact had been intentional and, more importantly, deserving of a response.  The more each worried about a “false” impression being formed in the mind of the other, regarding a supposed trait of weakness, would bring greater an eagerness to dispel any images of self-doubt. And so as happened, chancing on the street a second “bumping” was to occur; this, with a rapid turn-about  —   the most vigorous of the pair launching a “teach you” attack upon his opponent which resulted in a bloody nose.
Any so it was to happen with Germany and Britain –a trouncing of the latter’s professional army that would cause his removal in excape from the continent; or, a signal reminder to “stand aside and stay out of the way, I have a job to do”.

Pommy? So you are an Aussie..figures .
After all, a lot of Irish convicts were sent down under.

Thanks Jocoul for your comment, a welcome respite from some of the trolling in the comment section.

@Marc, you’re very welcome, I thought we could use some soothing comments here, although it still sounded insulting to some, jeez

@Sharon, sermon? where?

US propaganda issue : just like everybody else (France, UK, Germany) did outright propaganda during WWII, and subtler propaganda (call it what you will) afterwards.

Negative remark about France so you’ll feel better : I’m not proud of France’s dealing with the Algerian war. It was a random pick, there are many to pick from.

“I would be careful about swallowing wholeheartedly everything they say” – it’s not about swallowing, it’s about having an open discussion, freed from cliches, prejudices and taboos (and not feeling assaulted at every word).

“Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc. ” Most probably so, does it mean US media are not biased ? I need to call the US portion of my family so as to spread the good news.

<Troll mode on>
“Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense. ” Yes, that’s how the US ended up in Iraq, but of course it was not propaganda (negative remark about France so as to make up for what I’ve just written so you feel even better : past and present leaders from France and their “obscure” friendships. Random pick again.
<Troll mode off>

Ciao

What are we supposed to call people who come to anti French-bashing blogs to demand that we not only never express any form of criticism whatsoever about the British/Americans’ involvement in WWII (and that only after years of reading anti-French comments regarding WWII ) but are only too happy to trash France even further all the while never expressing outrage even once at French-bashing or even acknowledging the issue seriosuly ? Which wether they like it or not is why this blog exists;

And seriously. What is trollie still doing here ?

Nice posts Jocoul.

Also I laughed at that : “Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc. ”

What about foxnews? The fear issue in the american media? Don’t you think french-bashing might be a produce of the media? I can say: pretty much, seeing all the french bashing sentences listed on that blog and coming from mass-media or USA officials… sad

But I don’t blame you Sharon cause : “Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense. ”

[[ I come into contact with a lot of Europeans in my line of work and thankfully the majority of them don’t have the bile displayed by some over here. ]]

Maybe that’s because you don’t start the conservation with:
“oh and by the way before we begin working together, I’d like to tell you how much you acted like pussies during WWII and that if it weren’t for us you’d speaking German right about now. And if you dare say anything I’ll call you fascists and humorless pricks.  Now that’s out of the way, let’s begin”

To Marc @ Miquelon.org:
You no doubt are familiar with Longfellow’s, Evangeline, a poetic telling of the extirpation of  French inhabitants of  L, Acadie from the Maritime Region of Northeastern North America.
Several years ago, I came across John Mack Faragher’s book, A Great and Noble Scheme ( New York; London: W. W. Norton & Company, 2005).
This book, a landmark, narrates the history of this French people targeted for extinction by British imperials and nearby New Englanders.  Notable is found the enduring humanity of this people, surviving as they did this early exercise in ethnic cleansing.

Fred (Midwest), Ethnic cleansing is one of those “darker side of man” issues that, to my knowledge, has occured in every culture and is a negative side to the heritage of all nations. This does not deminish the sufferings of the Acadians, but it puts it into prespective.

Fred (Midwest) – not only do I know about Evangéline, but my family was thrice deported for being French and Catholic. Once from Acadie in 1755, and twice from Miquelon, in 1778 and 1793. Acadien de souche, mais Français par la force de l’histoire.

@Fred Orth,  I agree totally.
Prehaps these gentlemen have not heard of Rwanda.  I hear the Rwandan independent commission has indicated  certain “persons”. 

Knowing their deep strong feelings about genocides I am sure these gentlemen here will be doing everything in their power to bring those accused to trial in the Rwandan case.

It is always a source of amazement to me how some people cling to “victimhood” long after or rather centuries after the transgression had occurred. 

Being part Irish, I know my Irish ancestors didn’t have such a great time when they got off the boat,  discrimination and virluent racism against the Irish was the norm in those days but I don’t wallow in self pity or claim victimhood & dwell on past injustices for things that happened centuries ago.  I live in the present .

@Jocoul
Thanks again for the sermon.
Your troll mode has been duly noted .  I see that you have switched it off now. Thats a shame just when I was beginng to enjoy the show.

it’s not about swallowing, it’s about having an open discussion, freed from cliches, prejudices and taboos.
Oh you mean cliches like “US domination” ?  Prehaps you should have a discussion with your German friends about what the Poles say about German domination? Prehaps not that may sound like a “cliche” and we can’t have that can we? LOL

Thanks also for your enlightened observation that the US media is also biased. Who knew? All this time I thought God himself was ghosting all those news articles in the US media.

[[Prehaps these gentlemen have not heard of Rwanda.  I hear the Rwandan independent commission has indicated  certain “persons”.
Knowing their deep strong feelings about genocides I am sure these gentlemen here will be doing everything in their power to bring those accused to trial in the Rwandan case.]]
Another negative “fact” about France by trollie. It apparently knows no other kind.
And a favorite among French-haters too alongside such “facts” as “The French were in bed with Saddam” or “The French long for their past glory”
With no intentions of trolling of course and starting another flame war…
The funniest thing about all this is that trollie still pretends it has no clue why people are not being so nice to it.
Strike that.
The funniest thing about all this is that trollie is now bringing up anti-French “facts” every time it reads something it doesn’t like about American or British history. The very thing it blew a casket about for about 50 posts and which prompted it to call us fascists and start its trolling campaign.
Its hypocrisy and retardedness knows apparently no bounds.
[[ I live in the present .]]

Trolling on an anti French-bashing blog out of the goodness of its heart.

@sharon wrote “It is always a source of amazement to me how some people cling to “victimhood” long after or rather centuries after the transgression had occurred. Being part Irish, I know my Irish ancestors didn’t have such a great time when they got off the boat,  discrimination and virluent racism against the Irish was the norm in those days but I don’t wallow in self pity or claim victimhood & dwell on past injustices for things that happened centuries ago.  I live in the present .”

Not sure if that was aimed at me or someone else. If it was aimed at me, I was merely stating historical facts about my family. I am also part Irish and know about the Wexford Rebellion and the subsequent indenture my ancestors took on to cross the Atlantic. Knowing is important. I’m not wallowing in any victim hood nor self-pity, but I know where I’m coming from and although I have great interest in British culture, history and literature, you can safely bet I will never plead allegiance to HRM nor any of her descendants.

“Forgive yes, forget, hell no!”

I find it somewhat amusing that someone who’s come here to lecture us on anti-Americanism or anti-British comments stemming from the historical record and its interpretation now tells us we’re not to dwell on past injustices and to live in the present.

Well, if you won’t pledge allegiance to the Crown which also happens to be the head of state of your country, than you definitely haven’t “forgiven” yet as you claim.

sharon, you can accuse the people of anything and you seem to fully enjoy (sic)this right but so far you ve written around 50 posts in this discussion which account for nearly a third of the posts over 26 days…..

Either you re very interested in the discussion and being constructive either in the opposite case (i.e. you re just a plain troll) people are quite tolerant of your presence.

on a side note, get a life

Sharon, France, and its’ overseas territories, are not under HRM, or any Crown other than their own in their own past. Please check your atlas for St -Pierre and Miquelon. I guess, though, you could consider the occupation as being under individuals who thought of themselves as “kingly”, but, I wouldn’t go there. Population didn’t like it, and those guys got removed.

@ Fred, the address given for Miquelon in this site is Toronto.
(check below).  I presume you know who the head of state of Canada is?

Miquelon.org
27 St Clair Avenue East
Unit #811
Toronto, ON, CANADA
M4T 1L8

What if I don’t recognize the Treaty of 1763?

Another gem from trollie.
A Frenchman who runs a company out of Canada now owes allegiance to Canada’s Head of State.

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer this trollie…

[[Let me see, does  pointing out well know facts reported in the media for years that the French helped Saddam build nuclear reactors qualify as “french bashing”.  When did the truth become “bashing”? ]]

Mmmm…
Where have I seen that before ?

According to your fundamentalist mindset, bringing up Bush, Iraq war, US weapons sales to Saddam, Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam are all fine and dandy but no one should ever ever mention French weapons sales to Saddam, Chirac’s long term relationship with Saddam starting in the 1970’s etc. And if anybody dares to do so they will met with name calling and insults.  In other words you want a one sided view to suit your biases.

Mmmm….
Where have I seen that before ?

Could trollie Sharon be “Nick”‘s new incarnation ?

To Barney:
Your reply to The Big M  –Post 45–   was “right on”.  The British haven’t been “right” since Hastings; inasmuch, the freeing of the Celtic element from their Saxon overlords  by William the Conquerer did overturn the status of affairs. William’s first act upon taking the island was to have  slave collars, found placed round the necks of the former  –so-called knaves, to be removed.  Among chores relegated to the knave had been that of a runner  —   to follow, on foot, his mounted master in service to his needs (poor fellow) . . . . . . .and it  follows, an old saying emanating from the Celts of that day, was to the affect that  —   A stare from the Saxon was enough to chill the blood !  And so we see the English mind-set  –of perpetuity, existing in resentment against the French to this day.  What a shame; for, the English gained so much from that conquest as be incalculable; i.e., the following period of  imposed French culture.  Mentioned is the Doomsday Book, the  Bayeaux Tapestry that marked the beginning of this transfer, a transfer that included all branches of learning and discipline extant ! 
I guess what we can learn from the foregoing is to never take away a man’s servant nor his slave.

Oh no. Never intended to be the subject of the thread. I am a citizen of France and of Canada. I am French because my father’s family is from St Pierre et Miquelon. I am Canadian through my mother, I never had to pledge allegiance to HRM Elizabeth Windsor. I’d much rather pledge allegiance to a flag, or a pole for that matter.

As a Canadian citizen (of Irish / Scottish origins), I believe in a Republican future for this country as the Crown remains in my eyes the symbol of domination of one culture over others and represents the epitome of inequality through birth. But that is an entire other matter…

 Crown remains in my eyes the symbol of domination of one culture over others

In the present in the 21st Century?  or was it the past?

Using the same logic, those who suffered under French imperialism & colonialism in the past  should hold the same views about France  in the present in the 21st Century and view France as a symbol of domination of one cutlure over others even right now ……for what France did many many years ago.

Trollie chose to compare the British Royal family with the evils of French imperialism because ?

a) It’s ‘s a troll seeking confrontation and conflict

b) it suffers from brain defects and never realized its analogy made absolutely no sense

c) It means well and only brings up yet another negative “fact” about France out of the goodness of its heart.

d) it unfortunately couldn’t use the “French involvement in the Rwanda genocide” and “French secret dealings with Saddam Hussein” arguments this time but you know it’s coming.

Difference is, France is no longer the imperial master of millions, and like many of my compatriots, I denounce the ills of Françafrique any chance I get, but you wouldn’t know that despite your preconceived notions about what I do, think and feel. Passons.

Why does every subject have to be met with an ad-hoc symmetrical counter-argument? The issue I raised briefly is the undemocratic and symbolic domination of the Crown over other cultures. Deal with that issue, take it, look at it, deal with it. That is such a troll-like move.

To Barney @ Post #152:
[ The funniest thing about all of this is that trollie {Sharon} is now anti-French “facts” everytime it reads anything it doesn’t like about American or British history . . . . . . ].
Indeed, trollie’s fall-back-be-nice mode pursues the atavistic or feral approach;  i.e.,  her reversion to “nature’s way” in  Stoop to Conquer    speech-strategem that would seize the moment; moreover, said “Stoop To Conquer” mechanically applying [to the female] or definitive in a literal sense by Shakespeare in his Play.

Difference is, France is no longer the imperial master of millions,

And Britain still is?
How dumb do you think people are?

So apparently there is a double standard …..those who suffered under French imperalism in the past should NOT view France as  a symbol of domination of one culture over others in the present,  whereas the Brits still should be viewed as such

It speaks to the graciousness and generous nature of those whose ancestors suffered French imperialism that the majority of them have indeed “forgiven” France for its past sins. 

Yes, I know pointing out these unflattering double standards will result in the predictable accusations of trolling etc…yawn. What else can one expect of people of such a nature.