@Fred Orth : ” I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some Americans bashing their healthcare systems”
It pales in comparsion to all those years of viscious America bashing by the Brits and Canadians during the Bush years. So, they really can’t complain can they? If they do it will be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Now Fred if only you were as concerned about bashing America as you are about French/British/Canadian bashing.
Sharon, I give up on further explanations of the difference between individuals and National Governments. Suffice it to say that I agree, Barney should not have made personal attacks, I strongly disagree that there is bashing, on this site, intentially directed against the people of the US or against America. Bashing against bashers, however, is not aimed so much as personal as it is aimed at the words expressed, even though the original bashing is stated as personal.
@Fred Orth , I also give up on further explanations on selective concern for bashing. Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people, not government. Maybe if you didn’t notice any bashing of the people of the USA, it is because you agree with their sentiments. I noticed plenty of bashing against the ‘people’. And I disagree wtih you on another point, telling the truth about the US government is not bashing no matter how unpleasant. For example telling thet truth that there was water boarding at Gitmo is not bashing but telling lies, distortions, half truths about US government’s past polices in order to demonise and scapegoat the US is bashing. And there is a lot of that going on in this site . But of course God forbid that anyone should dare point out any unpleasant facts about French government policy, hell would break loose, but it is perfectly fine to tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
You can’t have it both ways, Bash the US on Monday and preach civility on Tuesday.
Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people,
Let’s see you express outrage once at French-bashing (plenty to go around on this site, take your pick) then you’ll be taken a little bit more seriously.
Call me paranoid but people who come here only to chastise the people who fight French-bashing, that is all you do here and that is a fact, do possibly have an agenda other than being concerned about this form of xenophobia known as French-bashing…
And the Brits leaving France to go back to their island to regroup and fight back is not bashing, it’s a fact. I thought you liked facts.
Furthermore it would be nice if you stopped assuming that your “team” deal in “facts ” when you talk about France while we tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
I hate to burst your bubble but you’re not the sacred holder of the truth.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?
It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
You should be deeply ashamed.
[Admin note: we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty of the actions of some. Also this is a Godwin argument: as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.]
Well, saying the British went back to their Island to regroup and fight back is not bashing but telling HALF TRUTHS such as running back to their Island while omitting the ‘regroup and fight back’ part is bashing.
But as I recall you and others here took offense when someone made an remark about “folding quickly” in WW2 . So you can’t have it both ways, if that remark about folding quickly is “bashing” and hence banned than so too must the remark about the Brits running back to their island be deemed as “bashing” and banned.
The day that I see you express outrage about American & British bashing, than I will express outrage about French bashing. You can’t have it both ways, asking others to express outrage over French bashing while you don’t express outrage over American & British bashing.
I am not surprised that outrage was expressed that somone dared to mention the fact that French police rounded up Jews for the Nazis. Don’t you know all hell will break loose in this site if anyone dares tell unpleasant historical facts about the discrimination of Jews in France prior to the Nazis. J’accuse.
Of course mentioning discrimination against Jews in the USA & Britain is pefectly fine but not in France. Hypocrisy doesn’t do justice to this kind of mentality.
Reminder: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Miquelon.org is now under assault by a bunch of US-style townhall crazies who come here with their registered weapons and scream “Nazi, Hitler, Pétain, Vichy” over and over in all topic threads.
Remember crazy lady from the McCain rallies? Have you seen looney brains from the Barney Frank town hall meeting?
By engaging these users we are feeding the trolls. They will cry hypocrisy, cowardice and bloody murder, but their favourite battle cry will be anything that tends towards a new confirmation of Godwin’s law.
May I remind these trolls this is not F*ckFrance, PaveFrance nor Charles Bremner’s comment section. This is our space, our oasis where we get to think, plan and debate intelligently with others. But be warned, we reserve the right to shut you down when trolling becomes obvious.
Just because a thread is about the 100 000 men who died for France in May 1940 and saving the BEF does not mean we are side-stepping the heavy burden of Vichy – those are different issues. Our purpose, in many threads, is to dispel the “surrender monkey” meme.
Let’s not boil all of World War II down to the same-old same-old.
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:57am
“we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty”
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day. [Admin note: wrong on so many levels. But engaging this issue would only please this troll. Will not feed the troll.]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:30am
I just hope you don’t have any Jewish members, because im sure they will be offended by your collective lack of guilt. [Admin note: you’re wrong. Answering you with any more precision would be feeding the troll. Users here discuss French bashing topics, not what heritage they have. When dealing with history, we deal with precise issues such as surrender/cowardice memes. This is unrelated to other WW2 issues we are painfully aware of, in part thanks to the excellent education we get on these topics in France]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 3:21am
France Nazi, France Nazi, France Nazi
[Admin: I’m approving the messages above to illustrate the type of comments this user was intent on making on this site. This user is currently banned]
May I share with you one of my latest reddit comments. I don’t like making these kinds of statements, but from time to time it is necessary to remind readers history is not as simple as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and Casablanca.
Yes, yes, anybody who dares tell unpleasant facts about France relevant to the topic being discussion….after all Stanhope is talking about WW2 and “saving’ France, is now a townhall crazy. Whats next? I am waiting with bated breath for the next attack.
A troll is one who never discusses the points put forth such as whether if “folding quickly” is bashing but the Brits “running back” is not bashing etc etc. instead indulges in personal attacks .I would say the owner of this blog reveals himself to have all the characteristics of a troll . He doesn’t address any of the points I have raised maybe because it raises some uuncomfortable truths about the double standards and hypocrisy in this site, instead he makes personal attacks thereby revealing his own mentality without realizing it. Of course now I will be banned for stating exactly what he did.
Instead of pompously declaring this to to be a site for “intelligent” debate. Well, of course if remarks about Brits running back to their island is what is deemed “intelligent” debate over here, need one say more? I suggest the owner of this blog come clean and declare this to be a propaganda site . At least be honest.
I will say this again, it is not a mere coincidence that the 3 ideologies that rely heavily on propaganda – communism, fascism & nazism were made in Europe. Propaganda is a very highly developed art form in Europe and Europeans tend to be very good at propaganda. When Europeans come face to face with someone whom they can’t bullshit with their propaganda they turn nasty and mean. It never fails
The Nazis used IBM codes? The Nazis also used trains to transport Jews ..so are the manufacturers of those trains also guility of complicity in genocide?
Je vois pas trop le but de ton discours Sharon… Si c’est pour dire que les Américains sont les gentils et les Français les gros méchants, que les Américains sont supérieurs aux Français… autant dire directement le fond de ta pensée. L’obsession américaine de peindre l’ensemble de l’histoire France en noir (qui se limite à Vichy comme chacun sait) est surtout le reflet d’un manque de connaissance mélangé à un étrange sentiment d’infériorité…
Can you ban that Sharon troll already ?
She’s funny in a tragic kind of way but she’s obviously never going to contribute anything else than ranting about Hitler and fascism.
She couldn’t care less about French-bashing which is the raison d’etre of this blog.
FrançaoisA, you’re absolutely right. But I don’t think Sharon troll understands French.
ps: oh yeah and the Brits did run back to their island. Deal with it.
Half truth ? Sure.
But that’s only one half truth about the Brits buried among the hundreds of “half-truths” about the French you and your pals are so fond of.
Which as a good anti-French troll you consider truth.
Here’s hoping to never see you post a single comment on this blog again.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
Are we in 1945 or 2009 ? Riddle me this, genius. Lest I remind you how a significant portion of your compatriots lived under segregation long after Vichy…
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.
I was born in 1982. What is the date for my trial, master ? It’s about time I answered for the crimes I committed at the behest of the Vichy government.
Seriously, your ignorance about French history and life in general could fill volumes. I pity you. But hopefully you’re still a teenager and you still have some time to turn your life around.
Now, you want me to answer for what others wrote in this blog?
kindly address your objections about those remarks to the person who made them. Thanks in advance
I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing.
PS: Also kindly cut down on the lies, I have never mentioned Hitler. But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth?
On the subject of the holocaust, there may have been discrimination against Jews in France and other European countries but there was no public support for/or party advocating murder of Jews.
By murdering Jews in the countries they occuppied, the Germans ensured other European countries would also have the blood stain of genocide. If the German occupiers had not demanded the Jews be handed over, there would have been no genocide of Jews in the occupied countries, so the blame should go to the occupiers and their helpers, the vast majority of occupied peoples’ were bystanders to this genocide.
I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing.
Sharon, are you aware this is an anti French-bashing blog or are just retarded ?
If you don’t care a lick about French-bashing then you have nothing to do here.
And you seriously want to compare my off-hand remark about the Brits running back to their island written in anger in response to an unrelated and off topic comment about French cowardice to a daily regiment of being called a dirty coward by your ilk ?
Seriously ?
Biggest strawman I’ve ever seen.
You’re losing credibility by the minute.
And what the hell does fascism have to do with the owner of a private blog putting down trolls like you whose sole aim is to disrupt the discussions on this blog ?
Do you know what fascism really is ?
My grand-parents escaped Spain and moved to France to escape fascism. Don’t insult them and belittle their suffering by using words like fascism that you cannot possibly understand. You poor persecuted, you…
“But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth? ” Sharon
Et donc ? Ça serait la preuve que les Européens sont inférieurs aux Américains ? Explique clairement ta pensée…
Et donc ? Ça serait la preuve que les Européens sont inférieurs aux Américains ? Explique clairement ta pensée…
Yeah, in Sharon’s mind, the fact that fascism was first introduced in Italy in the 1920’s is some kind of proof that the Europeans circa 2009 are some kind of inferior people.
Never mind that millions of Europeans gave up their lives to fight that ideology. Although I’m sure Sharon is gonna tell us that’s a myth and that only Americans died fighting fascism…
Never mind that Europe is also the birth place of democracy or the enlightenment.
What’s Sharon’s heritage ? The Jim Crow Laws ?
As I have also mentioned before the fascist MENTALITY that gave birth to fascism in Europe is still very much alive among Europeans even though fascist parties have lost appeal. One aspect of the fascist mentality – demonising those who don’t agree with their biased views with false accusations etc..
I am surprised that you don’t know your own European history. Not only was fascism merely introduced in Italy but fascism gained a substantial following in Spain, Germany, and should one dare say it ..France before it was discredited by the bloodshed of WW2. So it was not only merely introduced but gained power & influence , won seats in parliament, formed governments, and enjoyed considerable popular support in Europe. Fascism was born and bred in Europe.
As for Jim Crow, I live too far away from that place to claim it as my heritage. So sorry to disappoint you.
Sharon, You’re always trying to tell that europeans (except the brits )are evil in some ways and especially the french for some reasons… And to demonstrate this you always refer to the second world war with some examples and facts that are true sometimes but you’re hiding other true facts. Furthermore I doubt anybody here will deny that what the vichy government did is shamefull, but for example you’re never mentionning the fact that although our country was heavily occupied by germany and that a collaboation governement was in place french families had hide a lot of jews and “only” (Im saying this but 0.00000001% is already too much) 26% of them died which is a very few rate, only luxembourg had less : 20%; other countries with even fewer rates were either members of the axis (finland had like only less than 1% italy like 20%) or Denmark that because it surrendered very soon after germany declared war had all its civil laws managed by the danish government (which means no holocaust in denmark ). Now compare the 26% in france in similar countries like belgium 65% and netherlands 75% and you will stop bashing us for the holocaust, french has a responsibility in this but not more than most of other european peoples even though antisemitism appeared mainly in France in the 19th century. May I had that France has the biggest jewish community in all europe?
Also If you want to judge a people with history , do not try to do it with a 6 years period, and read some goddamn books.
Since you are very big on mentioning all facts, one should also mention the fact that Denmark managed to get most of their Jews to safety to Sweden right under the nose of the Nazi occupiers. Another fact omitted was how Bulgaria managed to save all their Jews .
the fascist MENTALITY that gave birth to fascism in Europe is still very much alive among Europeans even though fascist parties have lost appeal.
Another fact from our resident truther.
Where’ d you hear that ? Limbaugh ? Fox News ?
One aspect of the fascist mentality – demonising those who don’t agree with their biased views with false accusations etc..
Errr, all you have ever done on this blog is call us fascists;
What false accusations ? That you’re a troll ? You’re a textbook troll case for Christ’s sake.
And biased in what way ?
This is an anti French-bashing blog dedicated to fight anti-French prejudices and deconstruct in particular the French coward meme so dear to your compatriots.
What do you expect ? That we accept every crude comment that paints the French in a bad light with a smile on our face ?
This is one of the purpose of miquelon.org, to set the record straight vis a vis the distortion of French history and the offensive anti-French jokes that result from from it.
And of course some time we will kindly but firmly remind the people who come here to lecture us about past French misdeeds that they might want to examine their own history a little more closely first before starting their sermons.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you’re gonna bash he crap out of us, expect some back in return.
This ain’t a charity.
I am surprised that you don’t know your own European history. Not only was fascism merely introduced in Italy but fascism gained a substantial following in Spain, Germany, and should one dare say it ..France before it was discredited by the bloodshed of WW2.
Errr, you might wanna read post #46 where I specifically mentioned Spain.
Spain being the country my grandparents left for France to escape fascism. My exact words.
And it gained influence really ?
And oh really² ? Germany ? You don’t say ? Thank you professor Sharon. You’re so learned.
Fascism was born and bred in Europe.
No s#it. What other concepts were born in Europe ? And do you know this is 2009 ?
As for Jim Crow, I live too far away from that place to claim it as my heritage. So sorry to disappoint you.
Yeah because me and my family are big fascist supporters of course. As is miquelon of course.
IOnly used the example of the Jim Crow laws (given your response I’m not sure you even know what I’m referring to) to show you the absurdity of your fascist reference. To no avail apparently.
I thought that was your gig.
You might want to mention that the total Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was about…6000 people. Or that Bulgaria was an axis power from the start and that Bulgaria was not occupied by German soldiers and was allowed a degree of autonomy in internal affairs. Not really comparable with France.
Kudos to both nations for saving their Jews, though.
And you keep coming up with the example of us taking offense with “the French folded quickly” comment. Ok
. But who made that comment ? Roquet.
A guy who we know for a fact has been bashing the French non stop for years and who had never posted here before. So what do you think our reaction is gonna be when such an individual turns up here of all places and start spouting histrionics about WWII. The guy didn’t come here for a nice friendly chat, that much is obvious. So of course tempers flare. There is such a thing as context you know.
Taking a look at Sharon and the posture she has evidenced in comments on this blog is seen positioned the — self-appointed– court-jew(ess), striving to be identified in a taken-up, hopefully- illustrated-big splash among other singular French bashers of the day. Court- jew methodology works in the interests of triumphalism; i.e., hitching cause to that which is seen as “star player” to the scene. Pertinent to Sharon is the Anglosphere –the “big buddy” to her fancied manipulation. As an example, big players –recent to the scene and most successful in this art of manipulation, include certain Neo-Con personages, elemental to the past Bush Administration. It is hoped this perspective will shed some light on this woman, Sharon; for, well-poisoning is taking place in her posts.
Fred (the other Fred), If Sharon is Jewish, great for her, she has every reason to be proud of her heritage and her religion. The issue here is point, not idenity. Is anti-French bashing somehow or, in some cases, anti-Semitic? If so, please identify where and how, we are with you. Please be precise and call for contribution rather than unleashing abstractions. This is an anti-French bashing blog designed not to communicate what is construed as transgressions by Nations but by individuals. We welcome opportunites to be better, but please grant that we can be a bit frustrated by lambasting.
@LG
My point is one cannot howl and scream about French bashing while being rabid American/British bashers themselves. Bottom line practise what you preach. Have the same standards for everybody, not one special standard for the French ( example : ‘French folding quickly’ in WW2 is bashing but British running away at Dunkirk is not bashing). There are other countless examples like this. It is ok to offend and insult Americans but not ok to offend and insult the French. The double standard etc.
Barney : You might want to mention that the total Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was about…6000 people.
The Facts : From BBC
one occupied country in Europe did more than any other to protect Jews – Denmark. The Germans had first occupied Denmark in 1940 but it was only now, in August 1943, after Danish resistance had inc…
one occupied country in Europe did more than any other to protect Jews – Denmark. The Germans had first occupied Denmark in 1940 but it was only now, in August 1943, after Danish resistance had increased, that they imposed full military rule. Now German brutality was practiced in the open and the Danish Jews were hugely at risk.
In September 1943 Hitler’s representative in Denmark, Dr Werner Best of the SS, a man whose hands were already bloodied by the persecution of Jews in France and Poland, met with the German diplomat, Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a known sympathizer of the Danes. According to their later testimony, Best first informed him that 8000 Danish Jews would shortly be rounded up…
Sharon, As I remember my history, Denmark joined with the neutrals and was invaded, without any capable resistance. Germans were not prepared to waste troops and they were critical elsewhere. Over time the Danes preformed two great feats against Germany. First, the Danes were able to successfuly their local Jewish neighbors to Sweden by utilizing the personel that the Germans left mostly unguarded on the ferries. Of the 6,00 to 7,500 (estimates) identified Jewish persons all but 284 escaped or remained hidden.Unfortunitely the 284, I believe, were killed.
The Second service to defeat Germany, was the heroric vandalism, blockage and interuptions which tied up the German Forces from proceeding to the front in France and Belgium after D-Day. A proud and great contribution to the Allies, especially for a Nation of only Four million souls.
This discussion has no goal… Sharon just wants to say that we are bad and fascist. She lives in another world… maybe she doesn’t know that the history of the USA is not that beautiful. I’m tired of the WWII arguments to explain everything, maybe we can change a little and talk about the indians, the slaves, the Bomb A…
Please do not feed the troll. This person lives by simplistic dichotomies, historical reductionism and manicheistic logic. By clutching at straws, this person is trying to justify French Bashing by painting us as US or British Bashers. It’s their only weak angle and will repeat it time and time again expecting a different response from us.
FrancoisA, Just because this issue of “fascist” is brought up, I see minimal reason to believe that it is directed towards France. Though is is sometimes absurdly used in describing French or German, Its’ definition is inmaterial to the subject of France. May be wrong, but I wouldn’t be supprised if there weren’t more monarchianistic that Fascist in France, Maybe reverse that for Germany, but still, not material. France and Europe are overwhelmingly pro democratic and, that, is the significant factor.
There is a defense for bring up Denmark. They have been allied with France far more than functioning as enemies, they are a people who are talented, intelligent and I am not aware of any serrious anti-France slant.
Also, I don’t think that making threats to bash Americans shortcommings is any function of this site. The United States and France are Allies, period. What miquelon.com address is French bashing by individuals, regardless of the title, nationality, political disposition, or attitude.
My point is one cannot howl and scream about French bashing while being rabid American/British bashers themselves
Only in your sick mind do you see rabid American/British bashers here.
You even called Fred Orth a basher. The guy is like the sweetest guy in the world.
You’re an apologist for French-bashing and your wet dream is to silence people like us so you can feel better about your bigotry. You disgusting troll.
The fact is that the entire Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was around 6000. To be compared with the 300 000 strong in France.
A little factoid you might want to to mention if you had any ounce of honesty in that sick mind of yours.
This just in…Bees declare victory after French surrender.
Have the French surrendered yet?
I heard that the Asian Hornets have some good deals on FAMAS……only dropped once.
I guess the French tradition of waving a white flag of surrender didn’t work this time.
Just wave white flags at the wasps, I hear that’s what the French do whenever they’re invaded.
Oh, and by the way, the French national flag is not really the Tricolour, it is a white cross on a white background.
^^^^
And it’s the same on every comment section that goes with articles about France. No matter the topic. It never fails just like clockwork.
This American/British obsession with painting the French as cowards is exactly what the pathetic trolls like Sharon don’t want you to see.
The disgusting troll is probably going to argue that the French do the same.
And I will ask that troll to show us where we do the same and that troll will be unable to answer simply because we don’t.
We don’t make fun of the biggest tragedies in American history to make jokes and dehumanize the American people every time Americans are mentioned in a newspaper article.
@Barney, you still keep on claiming there were only 6000 Jews in Denmark? So little regard for the truth. I suggest you do some research before making false claims about the amount of Jews in Denmark. How the hell did the Nazis plan to round up 8000 Jews in Denmark (from BBC) if there were only 6000 Jews in the country. Obviously you didn’t even bother reading my entire post before writing your page long rebuttal to it. If you don’t even read my entire posts, but write pages and pages about me and my motives…well, need we say more?
@Fred Orth
I was not saying Europeans are fascists today. If you had read my posts on this subject you would have realized that I was talking about the fascist MENTALITY. These people are not fascists but nevertheless have not shed the fascist mentality – demonizing others by throwing false accusations, not debating the points raised but instead making personal attacks. This site has plenty of viscious personal attacks on me……whereas I have not made personal attacks on anybody here. …so who has the fascist MENTALITY in this site?
I was looking into the ROOTS of the fascist mentality and of course the roots are in Europe. It is a historical fact, that fascisim was born and bread in Europe and even though it might be a discredited now in Europe, it appears the fascist MENTALITY is alive and well in among some Europeans.
What was the total population of France?
What was the total population of Denmark?
4 miilion Danes managed to save almost 8000 Jews, I would say thats a pretty good ratio.
@Fred “Germans were not prepared to waste troops and they were critical elsewhere”
Possible but since Denmark was a tiny country they didn’t need crack troops to even impose full miliary rule in 1943 (from BBC – in August 1943, after Danish resistance had increased, that they imposed full military rule.Now German brutality was practiced in the open and the Danish Jews were hugely at risk.”)
******************************************************** the Danish cabinet rejected German demands for legislation discriminating against Denmark’s Jewish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark
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From Barney hasn't left the building on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 9:02 am
From Barney hasn't left the building on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 9:06 am
From Bob on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 9:10 am
From Barney hasn't left the building on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 9:39 am
From Barney hasn't left the building on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 9:44 am
From sharon on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 10:48 am
From Barney hasn't left the building on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 10:56 am
From sharon on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 10:57 am
From sharon on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 11:03 am
From sharon on Doug Stanhope and Saving the French
Go to comment2009/08/22 at 11:25 am