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I raised briefly is the undemocratic and symbolic domination of the Crown over other cultures.

By the way “symbolic domination” is an oxymoron.  There is no such thing,  it is like being  half pregnant.  Either you have domination or you don’t.  Does the Crown have any kind of domination over Canada?  Hell No.

She is simply a figurehead now.  If Canada told her to go to hell (as you surely would like to), she would be kicked out of her job as head of state of Canada in a second.  Some “domination”  that is.

Why pretend some kind of domintion of the Crown when none exists? Becasue you can’t admit you haven’t “forgiven” yet as you claim for what happened many many years ago? 

I am more Irish than you and if anybody suffered from British imperialism it was the Irish, both in Ireland and over here…..yet I don’t hold any greviances. I prefer to live in the present and thankfully most people do, otherwise we would all be like the Balkans.

To Sharon @ Post # 67:
In other words, if you can’t beat them; then, do join them, an Irish cousin to sell-out-sycophant, Bill O’Reilly of the Fox Network (when did it go from Green to Orange ?). Once again we see the court-jew(ess) in action, using an Anglosphere anvil to beat out her agenda –an agenda most select of conscious; but, we recognize where you are coming from
and . . . . . . . . . . let the din go on.
P.S. Being court-jew does not require being Jewish.

Trollie’s rants miss the mark completely once again.

If a French contributor wrote something about how they didn’t like Cricket, trollie, as a great defender of the Anglo sphere, would respond by writing a lengthy rant about the evils of the Napoleonic Wars. If we don’t like baseball, trollie will rave about the Algerian War.

And yes there is a such a thing as ‘symbolic domination’.
Canada’s head of state being the Queen of England is a perfect example of that.
Words have meaning, troll. And the word symbolic has a definition. Look it up.

All that frothing in the mouth ….hmm, must have hit some uncomfortable truths  I haven’t seen such bile and venom in a long time. Probably being obsessed with O’Reilly has made you two more like him than you realize.

“I am more Irish than you” – What a sad comment. Irishness … is not about genetic make-up of the number of chromosomes you can trace back to county Wicklow or how many ancestors died during the battle of Vinegar hill. Being French, Irish or whatever is more than genetics, it’s about experience, heritage and culture.

You can live in historical amnesia if you wish, and you can put forth the Balkan extreme to discredit my desire to forgive yet not forget, but I still believe the Monarchy – the Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis – is an antiquated and undemocratic concept.

There is no longer a French King, Emperor or president lording over the Colonies d’Afrique Occidentale as a symbolic head of state. The fact the Queen remains the head of state of Canada is more than symbolism. How many old fogeys have I heard in Ontario, arguing for the banning of the French language because “you lost the war”.

Will you deny that it was impossible to run for political office in Ontario if you were not a member of the Orange Order into the late seventies? Will you deny that the Monarchist league of Canada no longer exists? Will you deny that the Union Jack is frequently flown over the Parliamentary building of Ontario, will you deny the Union Jack is still part of the provincial flags of many provinces, will you deny the symbolism of the British Monarchy to not me omnipresent in many police and governmental institutions?

Will you also deny the rampant anti-Americanism that is so present in Ontario?

Once again, trollie Sharon has binged-out on haggis when perhaps it should have been bagles and mullet; so, dear succubus, identify those “uncomfortable truths” that you speculate I might be troubled about or forever hold your peace.  The fact of the matter is that you really have 
nothing to say in your postings other than  “stomach retchings”  [TOS #3].  Certainly not seen is anything that offers food for thought  –on any subject; for, you posit no depth of background in education or learning.  The question is why do you bother to post at all ?  Are you seeking attention ?  Do you have an axe to grind ?  [TOS #3]
Why Marc puts up with you   –causing as you do a waste of time, remains to his province; perhaps, having the goods on you as a troll he hopes to iron out a little bit more about the subject and you are his “guest”.

Will you deny that it was impossible to run for political office in Ontario if you were not a member of the Orange Order into the late seventies?

But we are not living in the seventies are we?
I rest my case.

« Le coup d’Œil sur l’Histoire, le recul vers une période passée ou, comme aurait dit Racine, vers un pays éloigné, vous donne des perspectives sur votre époque et vous permet d’y penser davantage, d’y voir davantage les problèmes qui sont les mêmes ou les problèmes qui diffèrent ou les solutions à y apporter ». Marguerite Yourcenar

I see that you are a great admirer of Quebec’s language laws.
Sorry if my English words were the same size as French words.

What does Quebec’s language laws have to do with anything I said. Is this your latest angle? Are you against French language rights outside Quebec? Why do I bother asking you questions, you sidestep most of them anyway.

What I have learned from “sharon” :

1. One cannot fight discrimination in country P against Q if we don’t also equally denounce anti-P in Q, even if we live in P. Yet sharon has yet to tell us what he/she has done in his/her country of residence to fight anti-Americanism [if he/she is not a resident of the USA … ]. This is known as the Symmetrical Argument.
2. There is such a thing as collective and perpetual guilt, most notably for the French.
3. Historical injustices should be forgotten, except those perpetrated by the French.
4. Historical injustices should also be forgiven, except in the case of the French.
5. One should live in the present, except the French who should be held to greater self-examination.
6. One can be more Irish/French/whatever than others based on genetic heritage. Blood trumps culture?

[[All that frothing in the mouth ….hmm, must have hit some uncomfortable truths ]]

Oh yeah sure. A joke like you defending the HMQ. I’m so offended. lol

[[Yet sharon has yet to tell us what he/she has done in his/her country of residence to fight anti-Americanism [if he/she is not a resident of the USA … ].]]

It would be even funnier to ask it what it has done to fight anti-French sentiments in its country.

And now for the coup de grâce – which incidentally is not pronounced “coup de gras”. We also don’t say “bone appeteet” nor do we say “déja vou”.

From Wikipedia’s pages on logical fallacies.

Tu quoque, from Latin for “You, too” or “You, also”) is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent’s position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.

Two wrongs make a right is a logical fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that if one wrong is committed, another wrong will cancel it out. Like many fallacies, it typically appears as the hidden major premise in an enthymeme—an unstated assumption which must be true for the premises to lead to the conclusion. This is an example of an informal fallacy.

What I have learned from this blog

1)  French bashing is bad but American/British bashing is ok.

2) Non-French persons should express outrage over French bashing but the French do not have to express any outrage over bashing of other countries.

3) And furthermore non-French persons should fight French bashing wherever they reside, while the French do not have to fight American/British bashing in their country of residence.

4) The British (and Americans) are forever guilty of any injustices committed centuries ago while the French are not and furthermore even mere discussion of past French injustices is "bashing".

5) Past French injustices committed centuries ago during its imperial heyday should be forgiven and hopefully forgotten and never mentioned, whereas British imperial sins should never be forgiven or forgotten and talked about as if it just happened yesterday.

@Marc

You have been hinting quite frequently where I reside.
I know you know where I reside from my IP address, but as I understood from your own words "email will not be published".  I guess there are other ways of getting around that promise.

Sharon, I’ve been hinting at your location because of certain colloquialisms as well as comments about Quebec, Canada etc. No emails will be published ever.

Ok, thats good to know.

Anyway,  sorry if you took my remarks about Quebec’s language laws the wrong way.  When you replied back in French,  I (mistakenly) thought that was your way of showing disapproval of my writing in English.  No, I understood what you said but your sudden switch of languages threw me for a loop.

[…] Jay Leno and the Tonight Show – Collected anti-French materials. […]

[…] Jay Leno’s French Obsession – Is Jay Leno afraid of the Consul General of France? First, let’s deal with his latest anti-French monologues. Before losing his writing team to the WGA strike, Jay Leno could not reign in his obsession with the surrender of June 22nd 1940. […]

#180

broken record much, trollie.

1) This is a French-bashing blog. Main concern = French bashing. Deal with it.
Stop whining.  What you call American/British bashing on this blog are just histrionics thrown right back at the trolls who come here to lecture us out of the goodness of their hearts.
And it pales in comparison with real French-bashing which consists of  well documented ethnic slurs such as the French are cowards, dirty, lazy etc.
You’ll rarely see a French person start the histrionics throwing or bash the American/British out of the blue. That’s  a fact.

2)If you don’t care about French-bashing then your presence on an anti-French blog is de facto suspicious. How’d you wind up here by the way ?
See 1) about American/British bashing.

3) French or non French people don’t have to do anything. But if you’re gonna contribute to an anti French-bashing blog, then of course you are expected to at least care about the issue. If you only come here to complain about British/American British, then that makes you obviously a troll.

4) As miquelon has said. People shouldn’t be held perpetually guilty of past crimes committed by their ancestors. French, British Americans or otherwise. The rest is conjecture on your part.
See 1) about American/British bashing.

5) You have come up with a completely imaginary scenario there.
Anyway see 4) and 1).

Your post #180 summarizes your entire contribution to miquelon.org.
You are entitled to your opinion, however misguided it might be.
I think we got it by now.

So If you got nothing else to contribute. Will you finally leave ?

Wow, it looks great, Marc.
I’ve been waiting for this for a while. When is it coming out ?

You truly are a great Frenchman, sir.

To Marc:
This man, Jay, Should have gotten a fist in the face for his “jokes”  –it does work wonders in effecting a change in habits; moreover, any charges levied against the attacker would have mitigating circumstance.  It is because the French remain passive to bashing that offences occur, time and time again !

“The childish antics of this group underscores how desperate some Conservative have become.”

Oh yeah? Please explain to us, oh, enlightened communist [TOS 3]. [Note: please refrain from name calling]

SO, what do you leftist, anti-American [TOS 3] think now? Hope you don’t like getting to see a doctor. Hope you don’t mind  having all your income confiscated. Hope you don’t mind Obama’s desire to keep troops in the middle east (gee, go figure)…and under him they’re getting more casualties now more than ever. Let’s here it for the  [TOS 3] , [TOS 3] of the looney left! Yeaaaa communism!!!!

On a historical note, I, sir, DO remember socialism – not the Soviet style, but the kind that came with François Mitterrand’s election in 1981. I remember turning on our black and white television (it was a NTSC machine on a PAL SECAM island) and being shocked at the sight of the leader of the Communist Party, Georges Marchais, claiming victory for all the left. The first months of Mitterrand’s presidency were profoundly left-wing. Westerns were banned from television and money left the country. Anyone who wanted to buy foreign currency had to carry around a special card that kept track of such transactions.

I remember the devaluations of the Franc, I remember the nationalization of major companies … By 1984 the left-wing experiment was dead, a proposal to “nationalize” catholic schools was met with massive demonstrations. Mitterrand became a centrist president during the rest of this term and the following seven year term.

Anyone claiming there is socialism in any way shape or form in the USA today is not only deluded, they are profound ignoramuses of epic proportions.

[[SO, what do you leftist, anti-American [TOS 3] think now? Hope you don’t like getting to see a doctor. Hope you don’t mind  having all your income confiscated. Hope you don’t mind Obama’s desire to keep troops in the middle east (gee, go figure)…and under him they’re getting more casualties now more than ever. Let’s here it for the  [TOS 3] , [TOS 3] of the looney left! Yeaaaa communism!!!!]]
Who the hell are you talking to ?
I think you got the wrong people here. Most of the people here are French people denouncing French-bashing.
We’re just glad to see someone like McCain who has made virulent anti-French comments out of office. That’s all.
Personally, I couldn’t care less about how much taxes American pays or wether or not they see a doctor.

Bravo Marc!  I can’t wait to see the video (I can’t now because I’m at work).  I would like to give Jay Leno a bloody nose and two black eyes.

I don’t know that concentrating on Jay is totally correct. I like what Marc did, but, most of what comics say are written for them. Were the thoughts his or did he simply go, as is likely, with a writer’s idea that would appeal to the mob. As few comics as I know, I do hear that most of them go more often with their writers’ hunches rather than their own, especially if the writer has a track record of getting laughs. Just saying.

@ Marc. Congratulations for this nice video!
It takes time and patience to achieve that sort of thing. I do hope this will be an eye opener for some people.

@ Fred (Orth) : I ‘technically’ concur with you. However the main issue here is sad prejudiced jokes become character traits with the help of talented anchormen. They/their writers might know better, or their sole concern might be television audience, but what about the average viewer?
For I can’t believe Jay would have used these jokes had he felt just a hint of guilt/doubt/fear about them. He decided to use the jokes, he took responsibility for it, no matter who wrote them in the first place. Does it mean the jokes were pretty commonplace in his opinion, now this would be real prejudice.
Have a great day everyone!

Jocoul, Of course you are correct. The problem is that a joke referencing Niger, India or any multitude of nations would not have acheived any laughs, just stares of confusion. It is prejudice that is the core of a lot of Jay’s jokes. It always stems for a lack of knowledge by the audience and the jokers take advantage of it. Insults directed at Canada and Mexico are the common thrust today. California gets insulted in the South, New York is insulted in the Midwest. Comedians depend upon their audience not thinking about the consequences of their jokes and, unfortunitely, they are often wrong – like in this case. What Marc is doing is ethical and correct, but if the “sound bits” warrent, a comedian will keep on going.

Jocoul :  I do hope this will be an eye opener for some people.

If you think this is an eye opener than you surely don’t know much about what goes on outside the USA despite your many discussions with non-Americans which are according to your own words "open discussion, freed from cliches, prejudices and taboos."

In Europe jokes based on ethnic stereotypes are plenty and much worse, not to mention jokes based on stereotypes of Americans are plentiful.
You should ask your German managers what they call Poles in Germany ……ever heard of any "car thieves" jokes from your German friends?  

Prehaps those discussions with your many European friends are not so free of taboos and cliches as you think.

Fred O. The problem isn’t jokes. Comedians can joke all they want about France, there’s plenty of material available.

It’s just that those surrender jokes are particularly vile because of the hundreds of thousands of French deaths last century (military and civilian). 
And furthermore they are a complete fabrication of history for anyone who has studied up a little bit on the true military history of France. Which neither starts nor ends in June 1940.

When Jay Leno says that the French Resistance was a myth, is he still joking ? Frankly I don’t think he is. Which leads one to wonder if he truly believes the French are cowards. In which case his surrender “jokes” become something else entirely.

#7

Dammit. I thought we had gotten rid of that [tos3] troll.
Go spew your nonsense somewhere please.

Sharon – yes there’s plenty of American stereotyping in Europe as well, the big difference is that it is not targeted at wide audiences by mainstream media (FoxNews etc…) or for entertainment (Jay Leno etc…).

Barney, I agree with you completely, but, other than Marc’s approach, I don’t know how you stop this until it, as always, runs out of steam and is no longer thought of, by some, as “funny”.

Sharon, I was born and raised in Europe, I know what’s going on there and I already stated that there are things I’m obviously not proud of.
Now you may like to read posts 8 and 10 again, they clearly explain what’s so specifically twisted with French bashing. The latter being the core topic of this blog, as Barney cared to remind you countless times.

Jocoul,  Europe is a continent. I presume you were born and raised in a particular country in Europe.

That said Europe is too big, complex with countless regional differences  so you may not be aware of the “specific twisted”  bashing of Gypsies, Turks, Arabs  that goes on in certain European countries which is far worse than any French bashing one would see on Jay.  

So there is nothing specifiically twisted about French bashing….believe it or not there is much worse . So is there nothing “specifically twisted” about the  common ethnic slurs against Poles as “car thieves” in Germany given that millions of Poles died as a result of Germany aggression in WW2?  After all that the was the logic used in the French case.

FrancisK: big difference is that it is not targeted at wide audiences by mainstream media

You have to know SEVERAL European languages to make this judgement.  One has to know the native tongue to know what is commonly said in the mainstream media.

^^^^

Voila

The troll is gonna hijack another thread with its out of topic nonsensical crap.

And you gotta love the not so subtle justification of French-bashing too, which by the way has always been the troll’s true purpose since it got here.

What a waste of air that troll is.

@Barney, can you tell us the racial slurs for Arabs in France……don’t you find that particular twisted given how hundreds of thousands of Arabs suffered and died during French imperial rule?

sharon, the term Arab is incorrect and shows ignorance about the immigrants in France. Try learning the differences that exist between berbers, north-africans, algerians, moroccans, tunisians … “Arab” is as generic and offensive to some as “Eskimo”.
While on the subject, there is no prime-time comedy show where anti-anything jokes are told day in day out. There are no news channels dedicating to vilifying a people, culture or country.

How many French TV channels can you name? How many French media personalities can you name? How many French TV shows can you name? How many French newspapers do you read, how many French radios shows do you listen to?

@Marc, no doubt you know more about French media than I but others who also pay attention to the French media have a very different view…….

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1574817,00.html

…..French variant is altogether more toxic. The latest outrage came from second-string TV personality and self-appointed social commentator Pascal Sevran, whose recently published book included the obscenely racist idea that the “black [penis] is responsible for famine in Africa
Sevran’s prurient opinions are but the latest addition to the growing racist chatter in the French mainstream

A month earlier, a Socialist political kingpin in the Montpellier region sparked fury — and possible expulsion from the party — by lamenting that France’s national soccer team fielded “9 blacks out of 11” starting players. “I’m ashamed of this country,” in which “the whites are lousy,” he groused, and would soon be fielding teams “where all 11 players are black.” That echoed a comment a year earlier by philosopher Alain Finkelkraut, who — seeking to explain the 2005 rioting by youths descended from immigrants in France’s suburbs — made allusion to France’s “white-black-Arab” soccer side that won the 1998 World Cup and became an icon of French social integration. ” Today, [the team is] black-black-black, and it’s the laughingstock of Europe,” Finkelkraut complained.

Even some black Frenchmen have joined the bigoted chorus: In November, the black comic known as Dieudonn頭ade a conspicuous appearance at the annual congress of Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front party — much to the pleasure of extreme-rightists looking to lose their racist stigma without changing their xenophobic positions. For the last two years, the self-described leftist Dieudonn頨ad outdone even Le Pen in Jew-baiting, delivering a series of brazenly anti-Semitic remarks, belittling the Holocaust and depicting Jews as racist persecutors of blacks and Arabs.

The rising torrent of racist language and publicly expressed racist attitudes may be a sign less that racism is spreading, than that the boundaries of mainstream tolerance are changing.

 Clearly, the political “filter” in the U.S. public square that prompts a Michael Richards or a Mel Gibson to grovel apologetically following publicly recorded racial insults is considerably less developed in France

France rejects affirmative action as incompatible with its republican ideals of color-blind equality for all citizens. Nice in theory, but that’s not working in practice: discrimination continues, inequality is rife, and notions of color-blindness don’t square with the rising chorus of racially loaded commentary. Color-blindness may also function to keep France blind to racial discrimination and inequality, but the rising tide of anger in the projects and racist chatter in the mainstream suggests that the French may soon have no choice but to openly confront what color-blindness prefers not to see.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1574817,00.html

***********************************************************
What was all that about no mainstream media in France & Europe  vilifying an entire culture, peoples ? ? ?

@Barney, can you tell us the racial slurs for Arabs in France……don’t you find that particular twisted given how hundreds of thousands of Arabs suffered and died during French imperial rule?
 
Sorry, troll.
The subject of this thread is Marc’s upcoming documentary about educating Jay.
If you wanna discuss ethic slurs for Arabs in France or racism in France I suggest you visit fuck*france.com or no pasaran.
 
Ans sorry but Marc I won’t be participating to your blog anymore as long this anti-French troll is allowed to hijack every thread it wants with total impunity.
 
I don’t come to miquelon.org to “argue” the French bashing apologists and otherwise haters I have to confront anywhere else.
You got two choices with trolls. a) Ban them or b) ridicule every single of their fallacies with researched arguments. Any other choice is a victory for the troll who can get its message across.
b) being a little too time consuming for my taste given the amount of crap trollie is spewing here.
 
 

Exactly my point. Dieudonné is now banished from the media.
Others have been excluded as well or seen their political lives shortened.
Next.

What was all that about no mainstream media in France & Europe  vilifying an entire culture, peoples ? ? ?

Sharon, this article you provided is for the most part (painfully) accurate IMO, however it does not address what Marc wrote (there is no prime-time comedy show where anti-anything jokes are told day in day out. There are no news channels dedicating to vilifying a people, culture or country). Why?

-The late Pascal Sevran was like a true institution to the elderly with his show “La chance aux chansons” but he was despised by many people  because of the stupid prejudiced remarks he sometimes included in his books (the “black penis” idiocy was part of one of his last publication, and it was noticed by an outraged journalist who spread the news). Pascal Sevran,  unlike Jay, did not utter these words during his show. His BS was not forced on everyone. Had it been the case, no doubt he would have been fired right away, regardless of his track record of huge television audience. The latter being the reason why he eventually was retained, despite of harsh discussions within his channel managing board (alas, money comes first).

-Dieudonné used to be a renowned and much appreciated stand up comedian (especially during his early career with his counterpart Elie: Elie was the Jew, Dieudonné was the black guy, and the team would blow apart cliches in a deliciously non politically correct manner). A couple years back, Dieudonné turned into a spooky radical political leader, embracing both (if that is ever possible) extreme left and right paradigms, making bleak jokes on whatever controversial topic. Shocked reactions will make him high. BUT several court rulings forbade him to carry out shows because of this sickening attitude. He still is banned on a regular basis, and most shows that did take place were welcomed with hostile protests. He more or less bypassed these hindrances by creating his own stand up place in Paris where he can rant and provoke (he invited a (in)famous holocaust denier there). His counterargument for all this mess is freedom of speech.
However one can notice that he does not access mainstream media, or when he does he’s a foil for the anchorman (television audience is first once again).

-Alain Finkelkraut or other prejudiced public figures : indeed there is underlying racism in France, among both the elites and the ‘rank and file’,
nobody here is arguing this. But mainstream media merely spread these sad comments (as is their mission), they don’t indulge in them or make these comments theirs, unlike J.

The rising torrent of racist language and publicly expressed racist attitudes may be a sign less that racism is spreading, than that the boundaries of mainstream tolerance are changing.

I would draw the same conclusion. Another brilliant reason for this blog to exist. We surely do not want to follow J’s example.

Sharon, you are entitled to be argumentative but we’re well aware of most “European baggage” you come up with.  There are indeed other forms of prejudices on this planet, worse forms too as you stated it, and you or I could find countless examples. Thing is Marc decided to fight French bashing. Maybe you’re not interested.

Barney, banning sharon would only prove her deepest held obsession about our lack of openess. While I understand your position, and trust me .. I DO … at the same time sharon is forcing us to craft our position more acurately.

As well, watching her go down in flames in thread after thread only conforts me in the fact we are on the right track. So I will not ban sharon at this point as no TOS violation is evident save the constant trolling.

It’s the gift that keeps on giving 🙂

Jocoul – excellent rebuttal.

Let’s get this back on track. Why Jay Leno you say?
Well, first off, I am convinced Jay holds these beliefs. Sure his writers supply him with the material, but Jay is a true professional in the sense he does most of his work and never ever stops. For that he is admirable. The quality of his work however remains controversial and that’s where we enter.

Not only does he believe this, he’s made some very offensive during a press interview – not a monologue – about the French resistance.

“Well, there’s nothing funnier to me than the French. The French Resistance is probably the biggest mythical joke that ever existed. There were four guys in the French Resistance. They couldn’t hand over the Jewish people fast enough. Oh, please, don’t tell me about the French. The French have all sorts of secret deals with Saddam and everybody else for two cents a liter. It’s an easy target.” – James Douglas Muir Leno, Interview with Nikki Finke, LA Weekly.

The other reason I focus on Leno is he is the GEN-POP actor of French Bashing. Howard Stern, Dennis Miller, Bill O’Reilly, Glenn Beck all have clout, all have huge audiences, but they are all politically inclined or marginal in reach beyond their core listeners. Leno on the other hand has a huge swath of influential listeners.

Jay is the propagator of the surrender meme. With more than 40 jokes on the subject, he is responsible – beyond Goldberg, beyond the Simpsons – for the acceptance of this myth. Thus, our attempt to educate him.

No dates yet on the release, I have a number of people working on this for very little pay …

That which is most galling to Americans of French extraction re French bashing is the ignorance, disregard and open hostility being demonstrated against one of the three major players [ France, England, Spain ] in the founding of this country.  You can visit Yorktown and come away with an appreciation for France’s spilt blood; however, it would seem that less-distinguished-present-day-stock  (the least involved by country involved)  must of neccessity tear down that spilt-blood image lest their “short-coming” remain so self-evident.  The Irish, among others, would have it that they are the all-American boy, Jack Armstrong; but, we know they arrived on the scene at a time when everything had been “accomplished”.  So I would say get off of it, scion of Cheddar Man, and find satisfaction elsewhere.

[[Barney, banning sharon would only prove her deepest held obsession about our lack of openess. While I understand your position, and trust me .. I DO … at the same time sharon is forcing us to craft our position more acurately.
As well, watching her go down in flames in thread after thread only conforts me in the fact we are on the right track. So I will not ban sharon at this point as no TOS violation is evident save the constant trolling.
It’s the gift that keeps on giving :-)]]
Yeah, you’re right.
I may have overreacted.

[I may have overreacted.]

No, you gave me an opening to state my case 😉