Oh Please!!!
South Park makes fun of everyone and everything! In fact the only way you should feel offended is if they haven’t made fun of you. If you think South Park has singled out the French…, you are an idiot! Try watching more than one episode before you pass judgement on an entire series. And in the meantime…, quit your whimpy, whimpy whining!
And by the way…, South Park has made fun of a) 9 /11 (b) American political and military failures in (1) Vietnam (2) Lebanon (3) Somalia (4) Iraq (5) Afghanistan (6) Tehran … and hell of a lot of other things.
Miquelon, I concur with your concern. I know young children, as well as adults, watch this junk. Their attack on French courage was unnecessary to their story and was obviously deliberate.
Wayne, there’s a difference between treating a subject and mocking it. They deal with 9/11 truthers, but never mock the event of 9/11. They deal with Vietnam but never mock the soldiers who died there etc etc. See the difference here?
South Park made fun of the truthers. They never made fun of the men and women who died that day, where as in making fun of the “French surrender” they are in fact making fun of an event that lead to over 217,600 military casualties and 267,000 civilian deaths.
And calling people idiots is not going to help any dialogue. I have watched every season of SP since the series started airing.
(a) “Cheese-eating surrender monkeys” is much in vogue in neo- conservative circles. This amusing jape will seem especially risible to those who remember the 1.4 million French soldiers who died defending their nation in World War I.” Jon Carroll
(b) “No other national or ethnic group appears to get the same continually negative treatment in print media reserved for France and the French, with the possible exception of Arabs or Palestinians, and even there, the treatment is not so much cultural as political, linked to a specific context or event.If one were to substitute, for example, “Mexican” or “Japanese” or “Indian” for “French”, what would reader reaction be?”. Edward C.Knox, May 2002
Wayne, have you been reading recent headlines? There have been 4 (thats FOUR) succesful French commando raids against the pirates, rescuing all but one hostage alive, killing several pirates, liberation captured boats and taking over 50 pirates captive, as opposed to only 1 (ONE) succesful SEAL rescue after lengthy indecision. The South Park episode was not only a slam against France, but a complete and twisted distortion of what REALLY happened.
When South Park disses the SEALS and dismisses their accomplishments in the same manner, then you may have a valid arguement to whine about, but not now.
What’s particularly unfair this time is the fact that the surrender ‘jokes’ came about in the context of the Somali Pirates.
A context in which the French military has very recently proven that it was very capable and certainly not afraid to fight
And it was all over the news in the US too.
I know that sometimes Trey Parker and Matt Stone write an episode only a few days before it airs so I cannot believe they were unaware of the French involvement with the Somalian Pirates. And yet they just go ahead and do this???!
It’s really a case of ‘damned if you do, damned if you don’t’.
A lot of Americans just plain and simple refuse to give any credit whatsoever to the French.
And seriously, aren’t even they getting tired of those jokes ?
It’s been done a million fucking times already.
Barney, it doesn’t matter. Short of a French soldier blowing a gaping hole in the face of an American comedy writer, nothing will change the situation.
Years of do-nothing or do-little French officials (MAE, Ambassade) have led us to a pop culture acceptance of this stereotype. The French government thought the best way to deal with French bashing was to ignore it hoping it would go away. Save a few letters and a few comments by the Ambassador (to the governor of Colorado for instance), their general attitude has made things worse. I guess communication studies are not in vogue at l’ENA.
Sure, we couldn’t expect the Ambassador of France to write to Jay Leno or Howard Stern, that would have been ridiculous, but there were so many other avenues that could have been explored. It’s much too late now and it’s left to us to pick up the pieces.
“Official” French Bashing is now over, and those who still abide by it are too busy teabagging and accusing Obama of socialism. But today, we are left with deep anti-French sentiments and prejudice in the general population, no matter what.
Hello Marc. I have done a little more research for you and this should help make your job a little easier. Salma Hayek’s husband’s company has the internet address www.ppr.com. You can contact Ellen DeGeneres by visiting www.ellen.warnerbros.com. Christopher Meloni’s website address is www.christopher-meloni.com/frame.html and he also has acontact form on it. Please make sure that you get him to also talk to Richard Belzer and their other co-workers. Celine dion’s website is www.celinedion.com. Adrienne Barbeau’s website address is www.abarbeau.com. Marion Cotillard’s website address is www.cotillard.net and the email address is info@cotillard.net. Carly Simon’s website address is www.carlysimon.com and the email address is cesmanager1@gmail.com. Paula Abdul’s mother is French-Canadian and Jewish. Paula Abdul’s website address is www.paulaabdul.com. Josh Lucas is a movie star and his mother is French. His website address is www.joshlucas.com. I hope that this information helps you and I’ll keep looking for more infomation for you.
As a positive, have you noticed that Chris Mathews has been making purposely positive comments lately on France and the French. These types of people, being consistant, can go a long way to plug the hole.
^^^^
You’re right, André, but how ?
I think there needs to be some male French role models on US TV shows and in Hollywood movies. A Frenchman kicking ass and taking names so to speak.
I guess there was Jean Reno recently in the Pink Panther movies. But then again he was only playing the sidekick of a clumsy, arrogant Clouseau.
As far as US Tv shows and movies are concerned, I can think of plenty of traitors, cowards, arrogant, pompous French characters but other than that I can’t think of a single instance where a Frenchman was portrayed somewhat positively or god forbid acted heroically in the last 20 years on an American Tv show or in a Hollywood movie.
I’m really a huge consumer of American Tv shows and Hollywood movies and it’s come to the point where I cringe whenever the French are mentioned, and believe me it happens quite often, because I know exactly what’s coming. It really pisses me off.
The people whose sole exposure to the French is television and movies have almost no choice but to hate us. I can hardly blame them since they have literally never seen a nice and brave Frenchman in their lives.
It’s a real problem.
You’re right, Barney. Jean Reno in Godzilla was the closest to a french hero I’ve ever seen in a recently produced american movie. But until some forty years ago, there were plenty of heroic french supporting characters in american movies (the cop in French Connection II) or TV (LeBeau in Hogan’s Heroes, even if he was a caricature). My best guess is that it stopped after the Vietnam War. Having lost and being humiliated like they never had been before, some americans needed a scapegoat, and we were a convenient target (as they said in the british show Ultimate Force: “Blame the French. It always works.”)
#14 is an excellent post, perhaps the best someone has come up with on this blog.
They’ve never seen a brave Frenchman. They can’t. They really have to dig for it, dig up their copy of The Longest Day or — God forbid! — get a French movie.
I mean, heck, even in the (atrocious, let all be said) Napoléon miniseries with — gasp — Christian Clavier, did you ever see the English dubbing? They all spoke with horrible, stereotypical French accents. So, even when brave, the French get the dumbass accent.
What I find hard to believe is that, if an age where there was no internet, minority groups like German-Americans and Italian-Americans managed to make such great advances (to the point where a toy Elmo with a pizza was considered a “racist stereotypical Italian chef”), can’t we gain support and protection from the state?
I mean, we’re being bashed, actively and ruthlessly. Will the US government — now free from President Bu**sh** — let down thousands of its citizens?
Hey everyone, it’s your favorite American. I’m back. It took a little while with the time difference and everything.
I see you talked about things a little bit since I’ve last been here.
Miquelon suggested you see can more of our conversation over on reddit.com. If you had any problems finding it, here’s a link.
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/8f181/south_parks_french_bashing_explored/
The conversation got more civil and Miquelon even joked with me towards the end. I don’t want you to think I have any less respect for the French just because of the words I wrote. Believe me…, I have harsher remarks for some of the stupid ass people here in America.
But the whole thing I was trying to get you all to understand is South Park takes a entirely different approach to humor that a lot of people don’t get. They think the things they say are really offensive and they sure as hell are. But more times than not, they are bagging on the people that are bagging on other people. So some of the characters are very bigoted but they use put them in situations where they show just how stupid and ignorant their bigotry is.
I’m going to say only one thing bad about you guys, and that is you take things a little too personal. I think nothing bad about the French. I just love a good joke and a good debate. Us Americans love to hear some good American jokes but no one here is smart enough to come up with one.
You see…, I’m only joking and I’m doing it about myself.
Please send me some good American jokes…, I loved to hear some.
Send them to backpackwayne@yahoo.com. I love to hear from you all.
In the meantime…, Be happy, be well and keep laughing
Wayne I know you want absolve you favorite show, I would too if I wasn’t French. Fact is, the “surrender meme” has outlived its welcome, especially in the French expatriate community. If you would please read through the other sections of this website, you would discover that the “surrender meme” was used and abused in so many circlees it has now become a perfect example of manufacture prejudice. Unfortunately, South Park fell in lock and step with this current.
Steve Dunleavy : « I know some veterans who would say that if the French are in training, they are training to throw up their arms in surrender. »
JED BABBIN, Former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense : ” Though what’s left of Saddam’s government may surrender at any time, there’s no assurance that the remaining Republican Guard divisions will perform the French Salute.”
BILL OWENS, GOVERNOR OF COLORADO “You know why they planted those big trees along the boulevard in Paris? So the invading armies could march in the shade.” – June 2004
Wayne, there are consequences to this type of constant attacking of one specific people and culture: discrimination at your workplace, harassment on the job, verbal abuse, children from exchange programs being refused because of nationality, graffiti, attacks on property …
I am not joking here, each one of these occurrences happened during the height of Anti-French propaganda between 2003 and 2007 and some of these still occur today.
Back to South Park. There have been Anti-French barbs in the past, but they usually come out of Cartman’s mouth (“French people piss me off” – in response to Pip Pirrup, a British character). The purpose of this type of joke was to ridicule the anti-French attitudes of people like Cartman who view all foreigners as identical.
But episode 7 of season 13, the joke is radically different in nature and purpose. The French are portrayed as cowards, readily surrendering to children. This is a very different type of joke as it paints an entire people and culture with a despicable character trait. This is what we are focused on, and we will not accept this from South Park any more than we would from anybody else. This was a lazy, pathetic and cheap shot, pure and simple.
” Us Americans love to hear some good American jokes but no one here is smart enough to come up with one.
You see…, I’m only joking and I’m doing it about myself.
Please send me some good American jokes…, I loved to hear some.
Send them to backpackwayne@yahoo.com. I love to hear from you all.
In the meantime…”
I’m French and I don’t know any American jokes. Never heard any, really.
What would be the American joke equivalent of “How many Frenchmen does it take to defend Paris ? Don’t know . Never been tried”
The actual answer to that question would be about 1.6 million Frenchmen. That’s the number of Frenchmen who died defending Paris last century.
So tell me, “Wayne”, how many dead Americans would I have to spit on to make a good American joke ?
A few months ago, I saw thousands of Americans getting violently outraged at a simple French poll, published in France in a French newspaper, about which Presidential candidate the French people would rather see in the White House so I can only imagine what would happen if the French suddenly came up with American ‘jokes’ distorting American history to make Americans look like an eternal bunch of cowards.
Of course, I’m sure you’d all take it with good humor. Your sense of humor is much more developed than ours after all.
“Come on, the guy’s a comedian… I’m French, my grandfather was in the Resistance during WWII and thus all this “surrender” and France bashing stuff really pisses me off, but I can take a joke.”
We all can take a joke once in a while. But this has become more than a simple joke. Cowardice has become a character trait which is now seriously associated , and accepted as fact by many, with the French.
This is a serious issue.
Maybe we should make a South Park parody of animated GI soldiers running away from Vietnam, Somalia, Beirut … But the idea of mocking any dead soldiers of any army is simply too disgusting for me to bear.
It would behoove French-bashers to create self depreciating jokes about the painful aspects of their past, only to prove that they do understand the full meaning of making fun of everyone, thus offending no one, if we’re to believe them. It’s not at all a question of whether or not the French can come up with demeaning American jokes sine this is really a cop-out for the French-bashers.
The onus is on you Wayne, not that you are a French-basher per se, because I don’t think that you are. However, if as you maintian, the South Park episode in question is supposed to demonstrate all-encompassing and depreciative humor, which I would add, completely distorted what really happened, then can you yourself give us a demonstration of a depreciative joke about Americans, perhaps a Pearl Harbor joke, or a 9/11 joke? Are the Americans who died on the Bataan Death March also fair game in such case?
Actually, it’s not the first time South Park has made French surrender jokes.
In episode 1008 – Make Love, Not Warcraft.
Cartman: “if you had the chance to go back in time right now and stop Hitler, wouldn’t you do it ?[…]When Hitler rose to power, there were a lot of people who just stopped playing. You know who those people were ? The French. Are you French, Clyde ?”
In episode 805 – You got F in the A.
Stan: “Otherwise you might as well move to France with all the other pussies”.
Face it, the only way South Park can overcome this transgression is to make an episode where the French are heros. Maybe Yorktown or WWI or the Free French on the right flank of Patton. They could simply make a charactor that is French and the hero in an episode. The don’t need to make Americans look foolish, just stop insulting the French. Since the writers are very creative, they should have no problem making up for this display of very poor taste.
Hey guys…, it’s the antagonist American back to say hi. Before I say anything that might piss you off I just wanted to say how fun it is to debate you guys. We obviously disagree on some things but we can do it on a civil level.
Over here in America it’s hard to have a rational back-and-forth on the internet. People get viscous. I think since they can say anything they want without any chance of reprecussions, they let it all out. See…, Americans are the real pussies.
I must say after reading yesterday’s comments, I was a little dissapointed in you guys. I thought I was getting through to you about some stuff. If I could get one thing through to you is that you take this stereo-type you think exist of you over here, much too seriously. I remember a couple of years ago someone made one of the first French jokes I had ever heard and I didn’t get it. This notion that everytime we hear something French over here we think of surrender is proposterous. When I hear French I think of wine, Captain Picard on Star Trek TNG, fries and kissing. Not an accurate view of the French, but not a negative one either.
You know I will defend South Park to the death. It’s a very clever show and just because many don’t get the message it sends, doesn’t mean it’s bad. This show has done more to make bigotry look foolish than any other show I’ve seen.
Anyway…, I want to thank you for allowing me to debate you guys. I love getting different views; especially from somewhere other than some of the redneck cultures that exists here. Please continue to write and feel free to direct your comments and questions my way. If you want to know anything about some of the misconceptions about life over here, I’d be happy to share them with you.
Your American friend,
Wayne
Well, reading this mademe feel kinda guilty for laughing along in that south park “Fatbeard” episode…
But still, South Park HAS dissed on a lot of others at well…and on a more personal level. Take for example the episode of “D-Yikes”. In it, Mexicans were stero-typed to be poor and a bunch of unemployed migrants willing to do anything for cash…and this didn’t came out from the mouth of cartman, they actually showed it as if it were the norm. That wouldn’t be the last time too…in and another episode, Mexico was depicted to be a poor, backwards nation and described to be as “hell” by kenny…
I could also name you a couple of other episodes where countries were insulted on the level that France was based. Example, Japan (the “chinpokomon” if i remeber correctly)
But laughing at France or mexico doesn’t make me stereotype them. France has always been a wonderful place rich in culture to me and the little jokes South Park crack doesn’t make me think of the french as a bunch of “cheese-eating surrender monkeys”. The main point is making sure people still know the difference between jokes and reality…
I don’t know about Jay Leno or the other sources you pointed out but South Park has never struck me as a stereo-typist programme or a show which “bashes” the French…
“The main point is making sure people still know the difference between jokes and reality…”
That is our main concern as well, I believe…
And unfortunately, it would seem that the French being cowards has become reality for many and it is in part due to those ‘jokes’. You people must think we are deaf and blind…
“I must say after reading yesterday’s comments, I was a little disappointed in you guys. I thought I was getting through to you about some stuff.”
It never occurred to you that our points may be valid as well ?
Hey guys…,
Interesting points have been made in response to my last comment. But before I get into that I wanted to give kudos to Miquelon for the drawing of the South Park Vietnam Character. That’s supposed to be an American, right? I loved your rendition. Do you draw those yourself? If so…, you should consider getting a job with the show.
On to other things…, I start by addressing Gabster’s comments:
“BRAVO” Gabster!
I see you understand what I’ve been talkin about. If anyone thinks South Park has been rough on the French, I can only conclude they haven’t seen many of the other episodes or they don’t get the style of humor. The whole basis of the show is to show idiot and ignorant behavior (such as bigotry) and then expose it for what it really is; all in an entertaining and hilarious way. They have been merciless to Canadians; even making a full-length motion picture about them. That movie, by-the-way has to hold the record for most cuss words ever in a single motion picture.
They also have, like you say poked fun at Germans, Iranians, Iraqis, Mexicans, and every aspect of the American culture. They have tore apart many of the current and pat fads that come in go in this country. On almost every episode they burn rednecks, Catholics, Christians, gays, straights, and of course jews. True they have people saying riduculous untruths and prejudicial statements about almost everyone. No one is safe! But they do so to show just how ridiculous those views are. Some people don’t get that and of course are offended.
And Barney, of course I consider your points valid. I wouldn’t be writing back and forth to you this much if I didn’t. In fact, this debate with you guys had been some of the most intellectual and entertaining I’ve had with people on the internet. It seems you Frenchmen are open-minded and actually take the time to consider what the other person says. American conversation is much more pig-headed and much of the time seems a waste of time to me.
Now on a different subject (kind of), I wanted to recommend a movie I think all you would enjoy profusely. It’s made by the same guys who do South Park. It’s Called:
“Team America: World Police.”
Now this is one of those cases I was telling you about where they make fun of everyone. But no one more than America itself. Well they do pretty heavy satire on Kim Jong Ill too. If you haven’t seen this movie, please go out of way to see it. It appears on Comedy Central every few months or so or you can rent it.
THIS IS THE FUNNIEST MOVIE I HAVE EVER SEEN!!!
It’s all done with marionettes and quite well I must add. The opening seen is in France. Please see this one. You will love it.
Well I’ve rambled on too long, but thank you again for the pleasure of being able to debate with some wonderful people.
You’ve got a great site here Miquelon.
I’ve never watched the show nor even know what it is all about so could only rely on what’s been written here.
I believe you are trying to describe the show’s format as satire. Problem with satire is the thin line that separates it from the crass and the vulgar.
And as Miquelon said above, “… the idea of mocking any dead soldiers of any army is simply too disgusting ..”
If it’s any consolation, there is a standing summons that will be served to Rumsfeld(and I think in Belgium too) if ever he musters the courage to set foot in Germany for accusations of war crimes.
Looks like Manhattan has surrendered to the Grand Duchy of American Airlines, effectively becoming a vassal state, the People’s Republic of Manhattan, and proclaiming its secession from the United States. The Electorate-Archbishopric of Andrewernessonia has withdrawn its ambassador from the newly constituted state as a consequence.
The U.S. Government has opened relations with the PRM, with President Obama paying a casual visit a few hours after the surrender.
How about garbage-eating fear junkies? Strategic retreat at its finest — as the knights of the Holy Grail once said, “Run away!!!”
How many Americans does it take to defend a skyscraper? No idea, it’s never been tried!
OK, OK, now, before everybody starts jumping on me, it’s just an illustration. The above are simply inverted French-bashing jokes. But I bet more than one American found them distasteful, right? Same the other way round.
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