Just a correction: Pepe le Pew is not a Disney character. He’s from the Warner Bros. stable of cartoons, along Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck and Yosemite Sam.
I do think you need to rethink your strategy when responding to “tweets” about the French. You need to get some context of each person who makes a comment. Reason? Well, sometimes people don’t bash but are actually just having fun – and those who know them will know what they are saying. The same way people might say the “fat Americans” or whatever. Not everything said about France and surrender is meant to insult the French. Get the context and get the person behind the comment. Or else you will be killing fires in a desert instead of killing the proper fires hurting you. Not everyone making a joke or a comment is a Fox supporting right-wing lunatic. Do some research and get the context or else you might make enemies of people who could actually be on your side.
anyone who says “French” and “surrender” in the same phrase is certainly NOT on my side. He may be more or less inocuous, but he certainly isn’t.
If you’re African (as I suppose by your name), what do you think of the old racist Disney cartoons? People watched them just “for laughs”, and people told jokes about black people, fried chicken and watermelon “just for laughs”. But would you take that kind of shit? I don’t think so.
The US are nice and sanitized for African-Americans, Jews, Italian-Americans, &c. Why can’t WE get a break as well?
I was perusing the comments for this guardian article when I stumbled upon this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/01/praise-antony-beevor-military-historian
More French civilians, 70,000 people, were killed by Allied bombs during world war two than British civilians by German bombs. Contrast this with some figures from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum… During the war, over 77,000 Jews deported from France were murdered in Nazi camps. Of these, one-third were French citizens and over 8,000 were children under the age of 13. Therefore less French citizens died during operations to liberate them from the Nazis than the amount of Jews that the French willingly deported to their deaths in concentration camps. I suspect that Mr Beevor didn’t make the connection, n’est-ce pas?
Absolutely disgusting… they had it coming.
Those cowards are lucky they are protected by anonymity; I can tell you that.
Sorry anti-British prejudice is not nearly as nasty and vile as anti-French prejudice from the French.
I was perusing the comments for this guardian article when I stumbled upon this.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/01/praise-antony-beevor-military-historian
annedemontmorency 01 Jun 09, 1:25am (about 16 hours ago) More French civilians, 70,000 people, were killed by Allied bombs during world war two than British civilians by German bombs.
Contrast this with some figures from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum… During the war, over 77,000 Jews deported from France were murdered in Nazi camps. Of these, one-third were French citizens and over 8,000 were children under the age of 13. Therefore less French citizens died during operations to liberate them from the Nazis than the amount of Jews that the French willingly deported to their deaths in concentration camps. I suspect that Mr Beevor didn’t make the connection, n’est-ce pas?
Absolutely disgusting… they had it coming. Those cowards are lucky they are protected by anonymity; I can tell you that. Sorry anti-British prejudice is not nearly as nasty and vile as anti-French prejudice from the French.
The difference is the French were dying in their own homeland whereas the Americans died thousands of miles away from their country, fighting to liberate other countries from German occupation.
Besides the London blitz went on for far longer than the Allied bombardment of France to soften up German defenses. The Allies did drop leaflets to warn French civilians but the French did not have a system of shelters as Britain. During the london Blitz, warnings were given as soon as German bombers were spotted and civilians would hide in the underground tunnels for safety, this counts for the lower civilian casualities despite being bombed for longer and much larger scale than France.
fighting to liberate other countries from German occupation
If they had been “fighting to liberate other countries from German occupation” I wonder why they basically didn’t do anything until they themselves were attacked in Pearl Harbor.
Likewise, if the U.S. attacked through France is that it was indeed the only truly reliable path they had to strike at Nazi Germany. Why? Because the short distance in the Channel allowed rapid, massive troop transport which would be ready and quite near Germany’s border.
France was then liberated incidentally. But the US did not go to Europe to free France, or they would have done so in 1940.
The Allies did drop leaflets to warn French civilians but the French did not have a system of shelters as Britain.
Not only did they not have shelters, they had no means of making them. Under the occupation there were very few things you were allowed to do, and you certainly could not expect the Germans to help.
Furthermore, the victims of the Blitz were urban population, where an underground network, as in Paris, would have allowed shelter. However, the victims in Northern France were mostly rural or semi-rural population with no underground networks to speak of.
I’m not sure what your point is here.
I was denouncing some offensive comment about French civilian deaths made on the guardian site.
I was certainly not trying to take anything away form the suffering the British experienced during the Blitz. And we are all aware of the sacrifice of US soldiers on French soil far away from their home.
I just wish some people would acknowledge the deaths of French civilians under allied bombings a little more and have the the decency to show some respect that’s all.
I don’t think anybody has refused to acknowledge French civilian deaths caused by Allied bombing. But then again if the French military had been able to repel the German invasion of France, there would have been no need for Allied bombing of France.
Of course if a country has to be liberated from German occupation, there is going to be fighting which means casualities (both civilian and military)
The difference is that though the USA was never invaded and occuppied by Germany , it suffered casualties fighiting thousands of miles away.
Andre: It certainly wasn’t fighting to liberate America from German occupation. Germany couldn’t even invade Britain from across the channel when it got bogged down in the Eastern front with the Soviets, German bombers, V-rockets had no range to cross the Atlantic ocean to reach American shores. The USA was safe from German aggression. So, it certainly wasn’t fighting to prevent a German invasion of USA. it faught to liberate Europe whether some people like it or not. As for the red herring of late entry, well the French and British practically handed over parts of Czechoslovia to keep themselves safe, so they have no right to criticise anybody else , especially non-Europeans thousands of miles away in another continent . This was a European conflict, and the rest of the world was under no obligation to enter European wars just because Europeans think they are so important the whole world should get involved in their conflicts.
Even though the USA knew that helping the British and Soviets thorough Lend lease giving material & military aid will provoke Hitler, they still did it. And they paid a price for supporting the British & Soviets eventually when Hitler declared war on USA after Pearl harbour.
Yeah, Americans were super duper courageous and brave and saved, out of the goodness and purity of their hearts, single-handedly the weak French girly men who surrendered without a fight, in the Gallic fashion. We got it. We’re not trying to take anything away from the sacrifice of those brave men.
I don’t know if people in American and Britain refuse to acknowledge the French civilian deaths causes by their bombing campaign, it is my experience that it is widely the case since, frankly, as an avid consumer of American and British media I simply never hear or read about it, but judging by your reaction it is definitely not something you like being reminded of.
And once again, I was only reacting to a disgusting comment made on the guardian site mocking those deaths on the one hand and justifying them to a rather strange degree on the other, the latter being I’m sorry to say a bit, just a tiny bit mind you don’t take offense, reminiscent of one part of your latest comment.
But then again if the French military had been able to repel the German invasion of France, there would have been no need for Allied bombing of France.
It almost sounds as if you think the French people who died that day brought this on themselves.
Although of course I’m sure I am mistaken.
It certainly wasn’t fighting to liberate America from German occupation.
Indeed. It was fighting to defeat Germany. As in defeating another country in a war? Yes?
Germany couldn’t even invade Britain from across the channel when it got bogged down in the Eastern front with the Soviets, German bombers, V-rockets had no range to cross the Atlantic ocean to reach American shores.
It certainly wasn’t thanks to the Americans. In fact, the courage of British airmen and the Channel kept them safe from invasion… two years before the russian invasion!
The USA was safe from German aggression. So, it certainly wasn’t fighting to prevent a German invasion of USA.
It certainly wasn’t safe from Japanese aggression. Furthermore, when two countries declare war on you — yes, Germany and Japan declared war on the US — what are you supposed to do? Act as if nothing happened?
it faught to liberate Europe whether some people like it or not.
Once again, no. It would have fought whether Europe was invaded or not. Its target was Germany and Japan.
As for the red herring of late entry, well the French and British practically handed over parts of Czechoslovia to keep themselves safe, so they have no right to criticise anybody else , especially non-Europeans thousands of miles away in another continent .
It is by no means criticism nor a red herring. It’s a fact: the US attacked when Japan and Germany declared war on them. Until then, the war was pretty meaningless for them, save the truckload of money they made from selling war supplies.
This was a European conflict, and the rest of the world was under no obligation to enter European wars just because Europeans think they are so important the whole world should get involved in their conflicts.
This is nonsense. Is Japan in Europe? Were the African Colonies in Europe? WWII raged as much in China as it did in France, when the Japanese invaded. It was a WORLD WAR. Your cheap shot at Europe is worthless.
Even though the USA knew that helping the British and Soviets thorough Lend lease giving material & military aid will provoke Hitler, they still did it. And they paid a price for supporting the British & Soviets eventually when Hitler declared war on USA after Pearl harbour.
This is ridiculous. Pearl Harbor had nothing to do with Lend-Lease. Pearl Harbor had to do with Japanese imperialism. Hitler then declared war on the US because Japan was his ally.
A l’occasion du 65ème anniversaire du D-day, on a droit encore une fois au rituel : ces jeunes Américains qui ont donné leur vie pour libérer la France… Excuse me, but they died on French soil for their own country, not for France.
America has been declared war upon by the Nazis and the shortest way from England to Germany was through Nomandy. Had it been possible through Portugal or Norway, would we be told that Americans sacrificed their lives to free Portugal or Norway?
1) Yes Allied strategy decided the liberation of Europe would happen through Italy first, Normandy second and Provence third. So in a way, the fact D-Day happened in France is determined by geography.
2) But for the men who stormed those beaches, it wasn’t about geopolitics, it wasn’t about grandeur nor was it about being pawns. The Liberation of France, and other occupied countries, was for them a justification of their sacrifice which must be remembered.
Be thankful to WWII allied veterans, be thankful by principal and by respect.
But don’t engage in self-flogging subservience to any specific country, remember we were allies, including the Soviets whose military sacrifice is too often looked over because of the atrocities of their leader.
After a dozen or so French Bashing tweets and getting his rump handed to him, Julian Bray deleted most of his messages and blocked me on twitter. Dare I call this a SURRENDER?
For posterity, here is the reverse order of tweets that led to his SURRENDER.
———————————————————————
Mmm… Interesting. The old “you are either on my side or against me”? Not everybody wants to be on a side on this one. Do I tell jokes that offend people? Abso-bloody-lutely. But I am always willing to do it in front of the person who are at the receiving end of my jokes. Maybe it is a South African thing. We stereotype every type of South African and laugh about it. Why? Because we know it isn’t true and this way we actually break down the tension by joking about ourselves. So… When I tell a joke about “French” and “surrender” it is meant as the opposite. Those who know me and my background will know I am playing it back at them or laughing at the stereotype. However… If I see this on Fox then I am offended because they mean it instead of joking about it.
Lastly, Americans don’t sanitize everything. Maybe African American jokes but even then not by too much. They joke about the stereotypes to play it back at people. It’s a fine line though.
From Miquelon.org - The Fighting French » Monitoring Anti-French Activity » About That “French Surrender” Thing ..
on
Adieu Jay
[…] most comedic outfits have abandoned French Bashing, especially Jay Leno and his forty or so jokes about supposed French cowardice and propensity to surrender, legions of […]
This article should be posted on the walls of every big american newspaper. Maybe that would help them not to write non-historic crap on every article about WW2, even without mentioning the treatment of french “débâcle” , as with the D-Day glory believed in US to be the turning point in Europe. Not very nice to forget the Russians and the real turning point, which symbollically and on the ground were both the battle of Stalingrad.
You almost never post now, miquelon, but it was worth keeping you in my rss aggregator 😉
@Moktarama : Totally agree with you. I’m thankfull for the americans that free our country but many often forget that they didn’t saved us from nazi germany, we were saved from communist barbary!
I’m saying this because between 90% and 95% of whermacht losses were made on the eastern front. The Soviet Union would have completely wiped out the third reich anyways.
I’m often hear something like “without americans you would be speaking german” the truth is that without them we would be singing the international!
I saw the article on Reddit.com yesterday, Eric Margolis has always been very vocal when it comes to the way the French were portrayed by the neo-cons and Washington.
Read the Reddit.com link that you provided. It is good to know that there is at least some effort out there to try and have an intelligent conversation. I would also say that the “twitter” is a big pain that seems to have a lot of idiots playing with it. There are simply some idiots who like to play and will jump at the opportunity to stur up people by insulting them on any subject. Starve them of attention and they will die.
@thibault
“We were saved from communiste barbary”
This is the way Thibault rewrites history. What is meant by this ? The USSR ? But France is situated westwards of Germany and it is very unplausible, not to say absurd, that the Red Army could invade it. Did he mean the French Underground ? But the Communists were only a part (and a minority) of it, with a very limited control ol local territories.
Conclusion: You don’t need to be American to write stupid things about French history.
OH really? Then why all the countries liberated by USSR turned communist?
Why is it absurd to say that the russians would have liberated western europe anyways?
America fought axis and liberated us, but if it didn’t it would have been the russians and france would have turned communist.
Also I say it again more than 90% of german losses were on the eastern front.
And how can you pretend this is arrogance to say this? Arrogance would have been to say we liberated ourselves with the (little but brave) Free French Forces?
@Jean-Paul you seem to greatly lack knowledge of WWII and especially USSR military power.
Read some stuffs about Battle of Kursk, Operation Bagration and the battle of Berlin and you’ll see that USSR would have EASILY push westwards of Europe. At the end of the war they had everything an army could need, numbers, technologically advanced weaponry, and they progressed a lot in operationnal strategy.
The russian army that tried to invade finland was completely different 5 years later and was considered one of the best army.
The allied success in WWII was collabrative effort. I came here via reddit after somebody (probably a troll) made a crude comment. The american right that makes these offensive comments were not at the beach in Normandy for D-day. They just lay claim to the legacy.
Fred, I find it amazing that people are using twitter in a way that demonstrates complete irresponsibility. The business world is usually very sensitive to such comments…
It’s quite sad to see today that “French” is now first and foremost associated with “Surrender” in American pop culture…
Miquelon, You indicated that there was approximately one per hour. I’m not sure that that construes a “run on the bank”, so to speak. We’ll never see the total end of this stupidicy, France is of consequence and there is always a negative price for importance. The improtant accomplishment, and you are much responsible for this, is the reduction in hatreds’ volume and number.
Correct, this is not a run on the bank but the LONG TAIL I have mentioned many times. I also believe a lot of this is the consequence of Jay Leno’s influence, he brought this meme to the mainstream of US Culture.
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