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Your pathetic generalisation eg., “major assholes to americans” and “extremely anti-american,” reflects your extreme cultural bias and your absolute ignorance of how the French consider Americans, i.e., worthy of praise and respect when they are right and must be rebuked when they are wrong (what are friends for?), and worse, it seems YOU ARE quite determined to prove the thinking IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, not only in France, that many Americans are indeed loud and dumb.

Extraordinary attitude!

Lest there be any misunderstanding: It’s safe to say that most French backed our government’s refusal, as Marc stated, “to follow the Bush / Cheney in lock and step over the invasion of Irak.”” and that we did so because we believed that Bush and his fellow chickens, er hawks, were totally wrong to invade a nation based on lies… Wouldn’t you say that America’s own officials involved in the Iraq study group proved that Bush had lied.

It is not a measure of courage or intelligence for a government and a people who have at their command an omnipotent military to poke holes on every square foot of land in a third world country and cause devastation and misery to its already suffering population but it takes immense courage and great intelligence NOT TO DO something as odious and ignoble as that.

And for that we are called cowards?

Re: “And also, what merit is there in invading such a weak and worthless country?”

Sadly, bullies find such ignoble actions meritorious.

As I’ve said in the other post, I don’t believe, but not at all, that It is a measure of courage or intelligence for a government and a people who have at their command an omnipotent military poke holes on every square foot of land in a third world country and cause devastation and misery to its already suffering population. However, I do believe it takes immense courage and great intelligence NOT TO DO something as odious and ignoble as that.

(And for that we are called cowards?)

I support what has been said here: (my personal comments in italic)

[…] Just because the French military don’t go around rampaging like amoks when they are deployed like your friends are capable of doing or have done, i.e., incapable of identifying friends from foe, doesn’t mean that political will is lacking. […]

It is extraordinary that because our government and our military (or the French in general) don’t behave like the Americans do as when they impress media with their so-called “bravoura”, they interpret our own ‘un-amok’ or non-boisterous way of behaving outside a theater of war as being surrender monkeys. Remember when Bush pompously claimed  before the whole world aboard an A/C “mission accomplished?
— the French are fielded everywhere and anywhere they are needed. That’s political will. In Kosovo, who do you think provided the ground ops so your folks could come in and bomb and awe (yet Americans have been feted while the French took backstage)? The French! […]
The French should perhaps stop remaining silently in the background when that happens and behave as pompously as their American colleagues???
[…] During the Russian Occupation of Afghanistan, while your American leader Bush was dealing with the Talebans, who was actually supporting, financing, providing training to the the Northern Alliance to battle their Russian occupiers? France! And that’s great political will. And who the frig did he turn to when he couldn’t attack both Iraqi and Afghan fronts knowing that if he did, he would fail? He begged NATO to take over and sought France’s help big time. France supported the request up to UN level (without France’s political will, it wouldn’t have been possible.) […]
In Afghanistan today, French Air Force and US Air Force work side by side bombing and ‘aweing’ the enemy, yet it’s only the US Air Force that receives public commendation. It is unfortunate that the American public take our being discreet there as a sign of French cowardice. It shows the breadth and depth, or lack thereof, of the average American knowledge of current events.

Have posted above under HuffPost’s Pick which is Marc’s post

Btw, just for clarification, France Blog is my daughter’s blog.

Excellent France Blog ! Excellent !

First of all, I’d like to apologize on behalf of my fellow Americans for their incessant bigotry toward the French. Our media is relentless, isn’t it?

But if you’re living in the US, of course, you do realize that we bash ourselves even more, right?

I am in no position to tell you not to take this personally. I am American, and I see Americanophobic bigotry everyday just on the internet. It IS personal.

I am glad that you are standing up for your country and her people. Keep up the good work!

To French Blog,

I was pointing out the general attitude towards Americans in France. You are making to many assumptions. And I don’t have a cultural bias and why do you think I am for the Iraq War? For god’s sake I APPROVED of the french for sticking up to the American government and not going into Iraq. Now the only way I can see why you made those assumptions was that you had a preconceived notion as to who I was (based on being American) and said I was dumb and loud. now seriously. If anyone you are the one being an ethnocentrist, with your very sensitive anti-french attitude and the way you carelessly throw around insults about Americans. shame on you for lecturing me.

I NEVER CALLED YOU COWARDS READ BEFORE YOU WRITE

Dear Jane,

“I was pointing out the general attitude towards Americans in France.” General attitude? I don’t believe that you are right, but not at all, to say that the French are “major assholes to americans” and “extremely anti-american,” as being the “general attitude towards Americans in France.”  Have you actually weighed what you said? How did you know? Did you hold some kind of survey among the French population to be able to come up with your generalisation of the French attitude towards Americans?
“You are making to many assumptions.” I don’t think so… You left your door wide, very wide open for criticism by your colourful and unwarranted description of a supposed “general attitude” of the French towards Americans. Did you really think that we should sit by while you unfairly accuse us of being “major assholes to americans” and of being “extremely anti-american,” and believe that you were not biased?
“why do you think I am for the Iraq War?” To be perfectly honest, I did not (and will not) assume that you were for the Iraq war or against the Iraq war — I merely reiterated the reason why France was against the Iraq war, which you, if you really want to be truly judicious, should accept was what triggered anti-French sentiments of incredible proportions in American media, in many Americans, etc.
” Now the only way I can see why you made those assumptions was that you had a preconceived notion as to who I was ” Wrong! Completely, utterly wrong! (Read previous paragraph please.)
“…(based on being American) and said I was dumb and loud. “branding you personally as dumb and loud. Please don’t get carried away. I did not assume that you were American — you may be a Brit, an Australian, South African, Chinese or whatever for all I know (and care)  but I did assume that you liked Americans (And why not? Most Americans I know are very very likeable people.) I also accept that my phrasing, “it seems YOU ARE quite determined to prove the thinking IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD, not only in France, that many Americans are indeed loud and dumb.” might have led you to think that it was the intention but rest assured that the phrase was in reference to the way by which you yourself have branded the French as being “major assholes” and “extremely anti-American.” If you really want to know, I was trying to call your attention (hence, the use of the introductory phrase “It seems…”) to your perceived “general attitude” of the French towards Americans, that your writing about and it using those offensive phrases was not doing you nor many Americans or Brits/Anglo-Saxons a favour. If you were seeking mutual respect, you did not or were not doing it properly.
“If anyone you are the one being an ethnocentrist, with your very sensitive anti-french attitude and the way you carelessly throw around insults about Americans.” Carelessly throw insults about Americans? Very sensitive? I see, you mean if I called Americans major assholes, they, or you, should accept or embrace the epithet gladly? Anyway, I’m afraid you’ve lost me there. Last time I read this thread, the insult, eg., “major assholes” was coming from you! As to the thinking in many parts of the world that Americans are “loud and dumb”, I didn’t invent it; I checked out Google and presto! There were many entries containing the description in more than 3 languages; you’ll perhaps be surprised but Americans themselves have been saying this about themselves and some Americans blogs have asked whether it’s true that Americans  have indeed become “loud and dumb (and fat).”  To put matters to rest, rest assured I do not think you are loud or dumb.

“shame on you for lecturing me.” If you do not want to be lectured, please don’t hurl baseless accusations and insults around. There is a saying, if you can’t stand the kitchen heat, stay out of the kitchen…

“I NEVER CALLED YOU COWARDS READ BEFORE YOU WRITE” Ah! I never said you did. I guess, you should read too before you write. That paragraph there was a separate thought that was not meant exclusively for you. It was an opinion generally directed at Miquelon, at every other reader and of course, could include you; it is my personal reflection on the conduct of French bashers in general.

Hey, relax Jane! Tis the season to be merry! I personally welcome your call for mutual respect to be exercised in this forum!

France Blog,

All I got from what you wrote is that you are good at twisting words. Like you did about the stereotypes about americans saying “loud and dumb and fat”, I reiterated the stereotypes of the french “major assholes to Americans” and “anti-american”. 

Whatever you got from that statement it wasn’t meant to be offensive, it was directed at a couple comments in general on this page condemning people for being anti-french while saying rather rude things about Americans. Obviously I am here for a reason, I am interested in this site and France. I’m sorry you were “offended” or whatever you were from my post. My point was that light should be cast on both anti-american and anti-french attitudes, because I have noticed on this blog that many posters want respect for France and things french but say rude things about American and Americans. My intentions were good I can assure you. I have in the past contemplating moving to France, and learning French. I have nothing against the French or France in general.
To respond to your post about the stereotype of french being cowards I think it is more or so because of the events during WWII, and I wrote another comment saying that it was unfair and wrong to call the French cowards when they lead underground resistance movements against the formidable might of the nazis and the courage of the people even when their country was being torn apart by war.

France blog, all I had to see is one post in your blog where you type up factual errors about American people. How can you stand up against tired myths surrounding the French and then imply that Americans are the fattest people in the world – which they’re not. <a href=”http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23890071-29277,00.html”>Australia has usurped the US</a>. A fair and balanced blogger will be inclusive in his research rather than exclusive.

I think Jane’s got a point here.

I’ve seen in other French blogs where one was saying in so many words that Sarah Palin was the new face of America – despite her having the lowest approval rating in history among any other running VP.

Some Frenchies are using “the fight against Anti-Frenchism” to be Anti-American. That’s very unfair and hypocritical.

Jane,

“All I got from what you wrote is that you are good at twisting words.”
That’s a back handed  compliment I don’t believe I deserve, so, let’s go straight to the point:

You came to this blog which is an anti-French bashing blog and  dropped a stereotyping epithet against the French calling us major assholes to Americans (your exact words) and claiming that it was a general attitude in France. Correct or not?

You now are trying to turn the table at me as if I had started the name calling. Did you really expect the French to feel good about what you’ve said, to thank you for that odious stereotyping, to welcome your unbridled name calling without batting an eyelash?

What gave you the right to bash the French with your odious stereotypings and then to feel so offended when a French person takes a vigorous stand against your French bashing (because that was exactly what started this exchange)?

Virgomonkey,

“How can you stand up against tired myths surrounding the French and then imply that Americans are the fattest people in the world – which they’re not. <a href=”http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23890071-29277,00.html”>Australia has usurped the US</a>. A fair and balanced blogger will be inclusive in his research rather than exclusive.”

Well, thanks for the info but I didn’t see that when I was googling about overweight in America.

“I think Jane’s got a point here” A point about what? That Americans are not loud and dumb and fat? I’ve already told her I didn’t think she was.

“I’ve seen in other French blogs where one was saying in so many words that Sarah Palin was the new face of America – despite her having the lowest approval rating in history among any other running VP.”
I honestly believe there’s some truth in it if one were to base the definition on the fact that she’s been a major political force for the Republicans in the recent US presidential election. To my mind, she represented tens of millions of Republican Americans.

“Some Frenchies are using “the fight against Anti-Frenchism” to be Anti-American. That’s very unfair and hypocritical.” No, it’s human. You attack a person unfairly, his/her first reaction is self-defence even if it means hitting back which is a mode of self defence.

I had my first experience of non stop French bashing and endless bullying in 2003 at an international school by my American, British and Canadian classmates/schoolmates when I wasn’t even 14 all because France refused to go with Bush and invade Iraq. I was called names and played practical jokes on until my parents stepped in to make them stop. Despite this horrible experience, I have not become anti-American, anti-whatever nationality for the sake of being one. However, I will not take anti-Frenchism sitting down either and I know many French won’t too. This reaction is neither unfair nor hypocritical.

Miquelon,

Thank you for accomodating my comments in this forum.

Will be breaking for Christmas — Merry Christmas and a Joyful New Year to you and to every reader of Miquelon.org.

Best wishes to all.

PS. I might not be able to post as often come 2009 as I expect to have a heavy load at uni this coming term but will try to be back as often as possible. Again, many thanks and heartfelt congratulations for this wonderful forum.

France Blog,
Indeed I stand by my statement that anti-Americanism is a general attitude in France. In fact its practically a lifestyle. Be it a transportation committee of the government laughing about how stupid the word “airbag” is and saying that the French must not be like the Americans and use a more sophisticated word. Or from the very ignorant woman in a bar amidst a crowd of admirers, who said that America is fundamentally racist, and that everyone in America is fundamentally racist, and went on to call New York its own country, all the onlookers taking in every word nodding.
I have stories, some personal as well. While in France for the first time I was sneered at and ignored by the people, even when I tried speaking French.
A friend of mine was in Paris on holiday and was riding the subway when a man snatched up a lady’s purse and tried to get away with it. So my friend ran after the thief and was able to get the purse back. And what did the people around him say. They called him a “stupid American” and told him to just go home. Another story is that of a co-worker who while in a small town in France was confronted by a woman and a man who tried to take her camera while she was taking pictures of the scenery. So I’m sorry if I was blunt, but that was all I meant, giving my own stories and what I have heard. I do not think all are, I’m just saying a lot do and that it would be good to tackle both.
 

France Blog,

Its embedded in french society, if I may say so, more than anti-french behavior is embedded in American. There was a tv show in France, a puppet show, that aired the day after 9/11 with a small skit parodying the situation. With newscasters sitting at desk while a screen behind them showed the towers in flames. And then the newscaster said “Allah 1 Jesus 0”. Talk about inappropriate.

Or what about France’s protests against McDonald’s and Disneyland? After all, who is the one that eats and goes to these places in France if not the french? Or how about how the French Government tried to label Jurassic Park as a threat to French Culture? These aren’t made up, given all this can’t you see how I might be under the opinon that France has a “general attitude of being anti-american”.

You ignore all the good things I posted and are trying to make me out to be the “bad guy”. No Idea why, just from two lines which I may have written a little more politically correct, but you forgot the the next couple of lines of that post and the entire next post.

“Tit for tat Miquelon.
Maintaining a stiff upper lip or being sedate is fine but socking it to those hate peddlers is one way to get back at them too.
There are plenty of ’stories’ that can be recycled and which can be used to bash the Americans too. Once they’re published on the net, Google takes care of circulating them around. Heck, I’ve heard Russians mocking Americans, simply odious stuff about Americans. Those can be translated and published”

Looking back at this disgusting post its probably what made me comment in the first place. I personally don’t ever come into contact with anti-french behavior in my life so reading something like this. Someone condoneing being anti-american over what some Americans may have said really irks me. And the fact that you had the nerve to resond to my, what I thought was harmless, post and to completely ignore this one….well it just proves that you have a cultural bias. In your mind you believe anti-americanism is no big deal and that anti-frenchism is a widespread phenomenom. Please, I’m not buying it. Do you know how much your culture is envied and copied around the world? I guess you wouldn’t while just moping around searching for all this anti-french bashing.

The only reason you think anti-french behavior is so widespread is because you are constantly searching for it. If I had to “search” for all the anti-americanism in this world….well I’d be near wanting to kill myself by the end of it.

Hello all, no time to respond as I am on vacation, somewhere between Tennessee and Mississippi tonight. I’ll leave you with a quote, talk about it amongst yourselves : “The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” – Nietzsche

As for symetrical arguments, I’ve explained before that I don’t agree with the premise that anti-Americanism excuses anti-French behavior. We need to break this cycle one way or another, my purpose on the web is clear : to be a watchdog and denounce anti-French attitudes in the press, media and entertainement industry.

Bonnes fêtes

Marc et les amis de Miquelon,
Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année!

<blockquote>”I honestly believe there’s some truth in it if one were to base the definition on the fact that she’s been a major political force for the Republicans in the recent US presidential election. To my mind, she represented tens of millions of Republican Americans”.</blockquote>

But how is that the “face of America”? You do realize that there are 300 + million of us, right? If you want to be fair, you would say that SP was the face of the Republican party. This is where I felt that Jane had a point. It was because she noticed your slant toward American-bashing. That is what I’m pointing out to you.

And if you didn’t have an anti-American slant on your mind, you wouldn’t be googling American fat-stats.

<blockquote>”You attack a person unfairly, his/her first reaction is self-defence even if it means hitting back which is a mode of self defence.”</blockquote>

You are right! It IS human nature. But there’s so much crap you can find on Americans that is ACCURATE. Why not bust us where we should be busted instead of resorting to factual errors and hyperbole? I recommend that you read Superfrienchi’s blog. He bashes back, but he does so factually.

<blockquote>”I had my first experience of non stop French bashing and endless bullying in 2003 at an international school by my American, British and Canadian classmates/schoolmates when I wasn’t even 14 all because France refused to go with Bush and invade Iraq. I was called names and played practical jokes on until my parents stepped in to make them stop. Despite this horrible experience, I have not become anti-American, anti-whatever nationality for the sake of being one. However, I will not take anti-Frenchism sitting down either and I know many French won’t too.”</blockquote>

For that, I apologize. And can empathize as well.

Just don’t take the innocents down. Swing back at the bigots. Direct your speech to the Anti-French – not to the wide-spread of Americans.

You see what I mean?

Simon est un fils à Papa,sans lequel il ne serait resté ce qu’il est en vérité:Une petite merde.
Hautain,Obsédé sexuel,Vulgaire et dénué de ttes formes d’intelligence.
Quand à sa maitrise de la langue anglaise!!!!!!!!!!
Rien que pour cela,à écouter trois minutes,mort de rire…………
Inutile d’en dire +,cela lui donnerait beaucoup d’importance pour vraiment pas grand chose.
Ric.

Oops, Maybe Sarcozy wouldn’t like to be virtually voodooed either.
http://www.pvoodoo.com

Better to change … 

BR
Rafael

A typical racist (through the ages) proving its point:
– “They smell bad.”
– “Their women are easy/promiscuous.”
– “They are lazy.”
Here, it’s the laziness: http://store.despair.com/effort.html

Of course, the British have had great successes, such as murdering helpless French sailors whose ships were at port in Mers-el-Kebir.

Many have tried to excuse Mers-el-Kebir, to portray it as the consequence of French arrogance. I call it murder, come what may.

As for Italians, she’s out of luck. They switched sides four times during the last world war, were defeated by the French on nearly all fronts (even when France was nearly defeated and they tried to invade from the South), and scored nary a success.

Oh, and the MASSIVE surrender at the battle of Caporetto comes to mind: About a hundred German soldiers get over 100,000 Italian soldiers to surrender, capturing over 160 artillery pieces.

Not bad, eh?

The New York Post is a real rag.  It is owned by Rupert Murdoch, who also owns the Fox Network.
André Wernesson, #1:  Your post is very interesting.  I didn’t know about Mers-El-Kebir.  I looked it up in Wikipedia.  I didn’t know about Caporetto either.  I knew the Italians changed sides twice during WW2 but I didn’t know it was actually four times.  I’m going to look further into this.
 

The New York Post is a complete waste of time. It has zero objectivity and only exists to push propaganda from the far right. The best approach to dealing with these idiots is to file complaints with those who advertise in the NYP. No money and they will go away.

care health saginaw mi covenant covenant mi health care saginaw

It shouldn’t be a surpise to anyone that even Rupert Murdoch, News Corp CEO and the owner of the New York Post, made a desperate attempt to distance himself from this embarassing low quality, gossip newspaper. He spent $5 Bln at the worst possible time to acquire Dow Jones, Wall Street Jorunal’s parent company… guess he felt that “Murdoch, the owner of the Wall Street journal” sounded clearly better than “Murdoch, the owner of The New York Post”…

hi
an0etiws4smc2906
good luck

Interesting conversation over at The Young Turks website : Why do we hate the French when we don’t hate the Germans?

Nice quote : The French didn’t exactly surrender; they were betrayed by their government. De Gaulle was no “cheese-eating surrender monkey”.

#1 Wernesson is back! Not only anglophobia, germanophobia and europhobia: now on the top of that Italian bashing. I definitely disagree with that behavior. You don’t fight against French bashing by another bashing, as vulgar and partial as Fermino’s and co.

As far as the question of French and Germans is concerned, the answer is quite simple. French bashing is the result of a desapointed love. The Americans were offended by French reaction to the invasion of Iraq because they EXPECTED France to act differently, because France means in fact something for them, which is not the case for Germany, and neither for Turkey. Germany and Turkey are allies but no sentimental intimate friends. They don’t hate Russia either because it was never a friend to them. The feeling of betrayal can only come from a friend.    

Jean-Paul: You are an arse and a cad. I am not “back”, I’ve been here for quite a long while.

Whereas you, you are a persecuting idiot without the least social instinct. I can find DOZENS of examples in which you attack anyone with ideas different to yours.

And you add an unfounded self-righteousness to the mix! Phaugh.

You sir deserve a firm correction. Were you not hiding behind a computer screen, I assure you sir, you would not be half as cocky as you are now.

I run across another sample of french racism in the TV show “How I Met Your Mother” season 4 episode 4 (called “Intervention”). Near the end (18:45), french women are pictured as being inherently sluts. The original airdate is October 13, 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervention_(How_I_Met_Your_Mother)

You have no arguments to oppose to my objections. You are attacking Italians exactly the sameway Franch Bshers attack the French. It is a fact and keep cool.

You have no facts whatsoever, you have no insight to speak of.

You grab fragmentary observations and build up a fantasy of your own. Arguments? You have only your fancy to guide you.

I am angered, because you seem to have an obsession with me.

I object to all charges except europhobia. I am neither an anglophobe nor a germanophobe, as I am both versed in those cultures, and have studied and appreciated both extensively. I have been living in Italy for three months (doctoral grant) and I must admit it wasn’t a happy experience, but that has nothing to do with the point.

Now, “europhobia”, if you may call it so (using the “phobe” termination you like so much) I do not object to. I believe, as a scholar, that no-one with true commitment to the universitary ideal may like the european union, as it stands to all that is contrary to it: it opposes dehumanizing capitalistic material gain to culture and diversity. Ergo: culture only interests it as a means of gaining money. When it becomes an obstacle to gaining money, it must be destroyed.

I would add jean-paulophobia to the list, though. Your sort of person I thoroughly detest.

Your argument, to sum it up is : not the French but the Italians are the surrender monkeys. I fail to see the relevance of the battle of Caporetto against this lady. You are using it exactly the way Britons use the battle of Dunkirk etc.. 

I quote an example, to prove how void it is for a person to affect superiority whereas we all have had our humiliating moments. Can’t you understand that? I am attacking their feeling of superiority, not asserting their inferiority.

Counter-offensive

OK, so Jean-Paul has a kick out of pursuing me wherever I go and making erroneous (and ridiculous) judgements on my person. Fine.

I’ve nevertheless decided that with trolls like this, it is impossible to stay on the eternal defensive, as they’ll always be back for more, so let’s have a bit on Jean-Paul, shall we?

At first one might think Jean-Paul is a Wernessonophobe — no problem with that, I myself am a proud Jeanpaulophobe. Nonetheless, it so turns out he’s a peopleophobe! Let’s see his awesome comments on SF’s blog whenever someone disagrees with him:

“You bother me with your meaningless questions.”

“You don’t have anything interesting to say.”

“une réaction d’imbécile.”

“Surprising bad faith. You are like the Jesuit in Pascal’s PROVINCIALES.”

“You are in my view dishonest and highly partial. Langue de bois à l’état pur.”

And after these few examples, Monseigneur takes the luxury of making a huge fuss because of the use of the word “boche”. Chapeau!

Let’s face it: Jean-Paul is a troll, or at least his attitude is trollish in the extreme, and this gives him no right to go around spreading his unfounded, pastoral criticism of others.

Andre:

Your comment,  “…culture only interests it as a means of gaining money. When it becomes an obstacle to gaining money, it must be destroyed….”   sounds like the USA, not the EU. 

Culture has been watered and dumbed down here to appeal to the basest of instincts to the masses.  When there is little or no profit to be made by culture here, then it is deemed unworthy. Hence, the cutting of funds and grants to museums, dance companies, opera houses, individual artists and artisans, etc.

Indeed, but if already, for instance, Basque culture has a hard time surviving in an already multicultural state, what would happen to it in an all-agglutinating super-state? Valencian already had a hard enough time being recognized by the European parliament.

I believe that what would happen would be a “preservation” of singularities — more as a curiosity than a living culture proper — of the larger cultures, and an outright disappearance of the current minority cultures.

What the EU doesn’t realize is that culture is an essentially spontaneous phenomenon; that is, that even if they put their thousands of bureaucrats into creating their alledged “European culture”, they would fail.

Already, they have illicitly hijacked the characters of Charlemagne, Charles V, or Napoleon, giving them a sense which they historically never had. It is all a political anachronism created for purpouses of propaganda.

In response, just two letters posted the 11 jan. in the “Opinion/Letters” section:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01112009/postopinion/letters/mon_dieu__149571.htm

I just note that the Jennifer Fermino’s article was in the “News/World” section of the New York Post website…hmmm

Those answers are actually pretty decent. I’ve noticed that lately, more and more Americans are standing up against French-Bashing, and it’s always heartwarming when it happens.

“What the EU doesn’t realize is that culture is an essentially spontaneous phenomenon; that is, that even if they put their thousands of bureaucrats into creating their alledged “European culture”, they would fail.
Already, they have illicitly hijacked the characters of Charlemagne, Charles V, or Napoleon, giving them a sense which they historically never had. It is all a political anachronism created for purpouses of propaganda.”

I fail to understand the relevance of these miserable anti-EU arguments. You are obviously confusing the EU with the European Commission. It is like confusing a country and a government, France and the French government.
Now concerning your neo-traditionalist view: who said the contrary ? Who would deny the importance of “spontaneity” in the shaping of culture? “The EU” never did. A civilization is the result of history, true. But Europe is a more than thousand years old civilization. Read Lucien Fèvre and Marc Bloch. And there is definitely nothing extravagant in the idea of unifying it. This is not an idea of bureaucrats : Victor Hugo, Sully,the abbé de Saint-Pierre were no bureaucrats.
No great political project (and the European construction is one) ever happenned without inventing its models in the past. This is nothing new. It is typical of what Nietzsche called “monumental history”. This is true today of European contruction. Charlemagne was a pre-national unifier, and we are postnational unifiers. That’s why Charlemagne, who was actually called in Carolingian times the “father of Europe” might be considered as a founding character for us. The problem is, he was a model in the fifties in the time of the “Europe des Six”. The EU as it stands now is exceeding the frontiers of his empire. Having his face on our euro banknotes would be a problem.

HA! YOU of all people quote to me Lucien Fèvre and Marc Bloch? In any case, I must say that the Annales school is somewhat démodé, but I do recognize that you have read more than you look.

Nevertheless, I must dissent, and first of all with the qualification of “neo-traditionalist”. I’m no neo-traditionalist, but the existence of cultures must be both recognized and respected. I think that is clear enough.

As pointed out very acutely by Denis Richet (since we’re quoting Annalistes), you cannot be serious and qualify something according to something that didn’t exist in the moment.

Talking of a pre-national construction is unrigorous and anachronistic, as the national concept did not exist.

It is like speaking of “ancien régime”: “ancien” according to what?

Charlemagne’s empire was mainly a patrimonial construction, a fruit of the carolingian renaissance which seeked an imitatio of the Roman model, not some sort of prefiguration of the European Union.

The same with Charles V: he was no prefiguration of the European Union, his empire was PATRIMONIAL; that is, it belongs to the Habsburg family. Anything else is a modern interpretation.

“Europe is more than a thousand year old civilization”… Nonsense! You are like those XIXth century authors who would see a sort of pan-European “empire celtique”.

One may create modern uniting concepts, but they are the result of speculation.

Take the La Tène culture, of the campaniform vase culture. There was no such thing as a “campaniform vase culture”, yet modern historians have identified it as such for practicality and periodization.

One may actually say the campaniform vase culture was the first “european union” according to your outdated, XIXth century view!

And allow me to add: Charlemagne was “emperor of the Romans”, in spite that neither he nor Justinian managed the restitutio imperii. ¿Does that mean we should conquer North Africa, pray?

You also seem to ignore the religious factor. Bloch points that out more than sufficiently: in your so-called “european civilization”, the main binding element was christianity, period. And you being, as I suppose (a mere hypothesis) a militant atheist, I don’t assume that Charlemagne’s celestial Jerusalem is a very enticing prospect, is it not?

Don’t forget that catholicism, in particular, was the main moving force behind Charles V.

You see, Europe is a geographic concept; the cultural aspect is vague and difficult to establish. Let’s use salami tactics. Spanish culture is similar to French is similar to Italian is similar to German is similar to Polish is similar to Russian is similar to Mongol is similar to Chinese is similar to Korean is similar to Malay. Where do we stop? The old concept of “christianity”? Dear me! Could Jean-Paul, apart from a eurocrat (notice the “we”) be a missioner as well?

Try different elements. Modes of production? The feudal system has been in existence at different time periods and locations and is certainly not exclusively European. Language? Then we’d have to go all the way to Sanskrit! Food? No comparison, especially between the Atlantic and Mediterranean regions. A “common history” as I’ve heard it once? Nonsense, as any serious historian will tell you!

No, Jean-Paul, you’d be a poor historian, but an excellent totalitarian.

Please use objective arguments instead of personnal attacks. You definitely don’t know anything about my personal culture. You don’t know who I am. So please be more cautious.

Your view is historically irrelevant. The word “Europe” was used for the first time with a cultural meaning in the 7th century, and also in Carolingian times. “J’appelle Europe simplement une unité historique, une incontestable, une indéniable unité historique, une unité qui s’est sconstruite à date fixe, une unité récente, une unité historique qui apparaît dans l’histoire nous savons exactement quand, puisque l’Europe en ce sens, l’Europe telle que nous la définirons, telle que nous l’étudirons, est une création du Moyen-Age” Lucien Fèbvre L’Europe, genèse d’une civilisation (ch. 1)

“You definitely don’t know anything about my personal culture. You don’t know who I am. So please be more cautious.”

Exactly. You are constantly making personal judgements in a trollish fashion, and je suis en train de vous rendre la pareille.

As for Lucien Fèbvre: as I said before, the Annales school, although somewhat valid, is outdated. The study of history didn’t stop with these post-war schools, and least of all with Lucien Fèbvre.

But it’s typical of totalitarian regimes to shun true, avant-garde studies and choose their “official” savants, often mediocre and outdated, but suited to their message.

That is, you choose Fèbvre because what he says suits you; you do not take into account that since Fèbvre, enormous amounts of ink have been spilled, and that his school is no longer the unique reference on the subject.

But as you know, that’s how totalitarian regimes work. “Whenever I hear the word ‘culture’, I reach for my pistol”