190 thoughts on “Doug Stanhope and Saving the French”
Wow.
Excellent.
I did not expect that.
Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war. So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”….hmmm…Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to them vice versa.
Unless of course there is a double standard : )
It all goes along like the Native American Osage saying, “When an ally is wronged and needs our courage, we will come to their aid”. – As told to me by an Osage friend in high school.
Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war. So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”
On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…
On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…
well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?
Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.
well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?
An innocent comment from rocket with no intention of trolling and starting a flame war of course…
Your sole contribution to miquelon.org so far consists of belittling miquelon’s work, viciciously attacking me and trolling with the intention of starting a flame war.
Man, you got this stuff down to an art. You’re good.
But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling : )
Why Stanhope is funny and accurate: he turns a common anti-French diatribe on its head by stating something I – we – have always said:
a) the sacrifice – especially WW 2 – of some is not to be used for political gain by anyone for any reason, especially today. World War 2 only makes sense within a specific time frame, during a specific era. Using any WW 2 event outside of the context of this war is political histrionics of the worst kind.
b) who was guilty of the worst abuse of our collective memories, specifically World War 2? The New York Post, Andy Rooney, Dennis Miller, Jay Leno, Fred Barnes, Steve Dunleavy, Jonah Goldberg to name a few. Anyone who has even bothered with the French Bashing section of this site knows this.
So given the scope [tv, radio, press, politicians], depth and length [2003-2009 including the long tail of pop-culture] of (b) – yes many French citizens and francophiles responded in kind by raising the historical record of the War of Independence. I personally do not subscribe to this line of rhetoric, but I understand those who do given the confines and nature of their conversations.
Those who claim there is a double standard on this site, specifically Sharon, are trying to impose a simplistic dualism on the issue in a bid to split readers and users into two very distinct groups. We remember George W. Bush’s famous “You’re either with us, or against us” policy. Au suivant.
Rocket’s comment is another classic case of (a) – see above. It is historical reductionism at its worst and a vain attempt at collectively and perpetually holding us responsible for the actions of some in a different time. This entire website – excluding comments which are the responsibility of respective commentators – has always fought against this type of reasoning.
Wow! So anybody who states the obvious that Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to the French as well is immeditely attacked with false accusations of trying to split readers and compared to Bush. Accordint to this fascist mentality anybody who doesn’t agree with the party line must be a (gasp!) Bush supporter. LOL And all this because I stated the obvious.
Anybody who doesn’t toe the party line is immediately attacked with false accusations. Only fawning admiration for Stanhope’s remarks are allowed in this site, gee I wonder what will happen if somebody points out another obvious fact….Stanhope knows very well that when people say ‘we saved your ass in ww2″, they don’t mean themselves personally. So what Stanhope actually did was misrepresent in order to get a joke. Heaven forbid that anybody should point this out as it will surely get another false accusation thrown , I am wating with bated breath to be attacked now. Apparently the truth is too hard for some to bear.
I’m just an old man from Oklahoma, but, I have always thought that a positive comment, regardless of context, is always appreciated more than a bashing comment. Human nature, if you were to ask me. Again, I suggest the allies, despite differences of opinion, stand together in promoting democratic principals. Positives deserve praise, differences deserve critism, not bashing. It’s only my opinion, not a statement of absolute fact.
Inflammatory rhetoric used in comment 3230: attacked (2) / false accusations (2) / fascist mentality / party line (2).
“The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling : )
Remarks such as ?
And in what context are they being made ?
Aren’t they always in response to anti-French comments ?
Pretty hateful piece of French-bashing from an Irish newspaper.
I haven’t read the article, but that strikes me as odd considering both France and Ireland mostly had good relationships unlike England*. It’s hard to believe the editors would accept this, given it’s in a country that stayed neutral during WWII, never joined NATO, supported German reunification in 1990 and adopted the euro in 2002. I’m confident maybe this isn’t typical of the Irish press given the four points I mentioned. I could be wrong, though.
*England =/= the UK
Marc
I don’t hold you responsible for the WWII collapse. I am slightly above that. I don’t hold you responsible for being French and you should be proud of that just as anyone should be proud of their nationality. What I am saying is that you often make a mountain out of a molehill to put it in simple terms. When you speak about 7 anti French tweets a week but you don’t bother to inform your readers that there are millions of tweets per day. When you drive to California to educate Jay you don’t realize the machine you are dealing with and you think you are going to give Mr. Leno a history lesson as your other comments. The guy’s interested in ratings. point!!! 7 tweets is a very low percentage and you act as if the sky is falling on poor France. This is what I don’t understand, where this victimization which you seem to have comes from. There is freedom of speech. You may not like it but thank goodness it exists. It gives you the right to express yourself but don’t forget it also gives those who don’t agree with you the right to express themselves also and on their own conditions whether you like it or not.
A French person can criticize France but lest someone else do it you go nuts.
“The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
n’est ce pas Marc?
Fred
“Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.”
Oh Frederic please. A bit of nitpicking and you feel well. I suggest you brush up on the English language a bit and maybe you can explain the difference between you and you to me.
With such pedant remarks as yours I have absolutely no chance. Please visit this site below.
Rocket, I construe your point as well taken. I do believe that, in this high speed information world, that expressions of free thought move around the world providing accurate and inaccurate information and quite a bit of rather vile, mean-spirited points of view. There are pro and anti sites on an unbelievable number of subjects, conservative vs liberal, pro America vs anti America, pro UK vs anti-UK, pro Islam vs anti-Islam, on and on, you get my point.
I see this site as a “pro-French monitor of bias against France, its’ culture, history, etc. It iexists because we happen to live in free democracies where people can choose what they read. I am rather proud of what Miquelon.com stands for and I am glad to receive its’ point of view. If one does not appreciate this viewpoint, and do not want to receive its’ expression, then that person is more than welcome to look elsewhere.
Rocket, in your last comment you provided sound insight that provides one to pause and consider the balance of a point of view. This is a constructive contribution and I applaud you for it. I do remind you that one person controls the overall thrust of this site and, as in any conversation, he who controls the plug to the microphone, controls the conversation. Miquelon requests politeness and he deservs that.
Fred, you’re a King among man. I wish I had your patience.
You gotta love rocket, though.
The guy bashes the French for years and then has the gall to come here of all places ( I guess just bashing the French on other blogs, which shall remain nameless, isn’t satisfying enough anymore) and lecture the people he offends on a daily basis about voicing their disapproval of a situation he has helped create and still helps perpetuate.
Then he adds insult to injury by belittling miquelon’s work who has documented and researched French-bashing thoroughly for years…
To me, that’s more insulting than any cuss words even though it technically doesn’t violate the Blog Comment Rules.
That goes even beyond trolling at this point. It’s a pathological obsession with French-bashing and its opponents. He just can’t stand that such places as miquelon or SF’s blog exist. He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way.
You will always see the rockets of the world come here on the anti French-bashing blogs to lecture us about overreaction and freedom of speech (never mind that the rockets of the world will go ballistic every time you criticize the good ol’ US of A and will harass you until they have successfully suppressed your opinion. They breathe hypocrisy and double standards after all) but for some reason you will never see them giving their lectures on the fu**france.com or the no pasaran which generate about 500 times more comments a day than miquelon and Superfrenchie put together.
And I’m not even mentioning Bremner’s blog where the folks still haven’t gotten over Vichy France…
Barney, seems that there will always be people who are interested in bashing and hating someone or something not of their own. There are French bashers but I understand that there are American bashers in the streets of the Middleeast and , right now, I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some Americans bashing their healthcare systems. The truth, though often reletive, can still be found.
As far as patience with the “roudies”, this really isn’t as bad as I listened to in cafes accross the US earlier in this decade. “Nuke Paris, F***this or that aspect or all of the French. When confronted, they usually recognized the absurdity of their comment. The point was to make them aware of their comment and its’ meaning compared to what they really wanted to say. The same thing applys to our pro-French stance. We love the gift of the French Nation and deeply defend its’ contribution to the World, but, in doing so, we must remember that we do not complain about the greatness of any other nation, they deserve their due, we only are addressing the retoric of certain individuals who happen to belong to a paticular nationality. To move beyond hate to meaningful discourse sometimes takes diplomacy but it always takes patience.
Rocket, the twitter issue not – as you put it – making a mountain out of a molehill. I am currently running an experiment on twitter and will report about it shortly. And yes, now that twitter has gone “gen-pop”, idiocy now has a new avenue. There are plenty of racist, offensive and idiotic tweets, the issue of French bashing is ours so we’ll deal with that – especially when they’re made by CEOs or well known actors and journalists.
As well, I believe the French bashing I am monitoring on twitter (and Youtube, reddit, huffingtonpost and other web 2.0) is part of what I call the long tail. I don’t see the twitter issue in isolation but as part of a general trend of acceptable of anti-French commentary in popular culture.
You are welcome to trivialize my work, to put down our efforts to “educate Jay”, but we will never listen to people like you. I believe we can make a difference through action, through inspiration, through communication.
Barney
While your comments pass.
“He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way”.
I mentioned on this blog a few posts ago how you usurped Superfrenchie’s name on another blog but my comment was put into moderation and the post was locked down tighter than a Texas jail during a riot. Interesting non?
Roquet,
As for the load of delusional bs you have written about me (and your involvement lol²) regarding my participation on Bremner’s blog under SF’s pseudonym, there is a thread dedicated to it. Miquelon’s policy I believe. http://www.miquelon.org/2008/11/09/huis-clos/
I hate to shatter your little scenario there, but the whole thing has already been discussed and as you can see I’m still here.
Oh, and in case you harbored any delusions about being SF’s pal and apparently you do, here’s what you “pal” Denis thinks of you:
Some of the commenters on his blog are also among the worst anti-French bigots anywhere online (believe me, I know. Some of them once roamed sf.com, before getting banned.) http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1594
A ringing endorsement indeed. lol
Intéressant non ?
Any more messages about past feuds and what posters did elsewhere, as well as further personal attacks will be unapproved immediately. We’ve been through this already (3).
Sharon:
What happened to the British at Singapore during WW II; or, at Gallipoli
in an earlier time ? What happened at Kasserine Pass during WW II –in this case to American forces ? [Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse]
Midwest Fred
Thank you Marc. By your last comment and by once again putting my comment in moderation becasue it doesn’t fit your agenda. You have proven that YOU sir, as you like to accuse other, are a coward indeed.
[Note from admin: this message is staying up. All others from this user will now be unapproved.
Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse, or contain materials deemed inappropriate. If your comment is removed or modified, and you attempt to post it or something similar again, your IP will be banned.]
#24
Another great contribution to this blog by our friend, roquet.
Dear webmaster,
You may use disemvoweling techniques for these kind of contributions:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disemvoweling
Then:
– the post is not censored: people are allowed to decipher the message, in case it is that interesting,
– but ill-tempered contribution will lost most of their negative power.
Yours,
Frédéric
I thought personal insults & attacks were against the rules of the blog , so I wonder why the person who made personal remarks about me ( “that your personal life reads like that of one of the Churchill daughters, sordid enough”) was not reprimanded. Gee what a surprise.
[Admin note: a simple private email would have sufficed]
When people stoop to making remarks about another poster’s personal life they must be pretty desperate. When you can’t argue the facts……
Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse
****************************************************
[edited as per rule 4]
Of course now I will be banned for pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and double standards in this blog. Apparently the rules only apply to some . [Admin note: a simple email would have sufficed]
@Fred Orth : ” I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some Americans bashing their healthcare systems”
It pales in comparsion to all those years of viscious America bashing by the Brits and Canadians during the Bush years. So, they really can’t complain can they? If they do it will be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Now Fred if only you were as concerned about bashing America as you are about French/British/Canadian bashing.
Sharon, you could have raised that question privately, a simple email would have sufficed.
But your incessant need to patronize me, your passive aggressive attitude along with your attempt at self martyrdom are not helping the situation.
Sharon, I give up on further explanations of the difference between individuals and National Governments. Suffice it to say that I agree, Barney should not have made personal attacks, I strongly disagree that there is bashing, on this site, intentially directed against the people of the US or against America. Bashing against bashers, however, is not aimed so much as personal as it is aimed at the words expressed, even though the original bashing is stated as personal.
@Fred Orth , I also give up on further explanations on selective concern for bashing. Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people, not government. Maybe if you didn’t notice any bashing of the people of the USA, it is because you agree with their sentiments. I noticed plenty of bashing against the ‘people’. And I disagree wtih you on another point, telling the truth about the US government is not bashing no matter how unpleasant. For example telling thet truth that there was water boarding at Gitmo is not bashing but telling lies, distortions, half truths about US government’s past polices in order to demonise and scapegoat the US is bashing. And there is a lot of that going on in this site . But of course God forbid that anyone should dare point out any unpleasant facts about French government policy, hell would break loose, but it is perfectly fine to tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
You can’t have it both ways, Bash the US on Monday and preach civility on Tuesday.
Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people,
Let’s see you express outrage once at French-bashing (plenty to go around on this site, take your pick) then you’ll be taken a little bit more seriously.
Call me paranoid but people who come here only to chastise the people who fight French-bashing, that is all you do here and that is a fact, do possibly have an agenda other than being concerned about this form of xenophobia known as French-bashing…
And the Brits leaving France to go back to their island to regroup and fight back is not bashing, it’s a fact. I thought you liked facts.
Furthermore it would be nice if you stopped assuming that your “team” deal in “facts ” when you talk about France while we tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
I hate to burst your bubble but you’re not the sacred holder of the truth.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?
It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
You should be deeply ashamed.
[Admin note: we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty of the actions of some. Also this is a Godwin argument: as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.]
Well, saying the British went back to their Island to regroup and fight back is not bashing but telling HALF TRUTHS such as running back to their Island while omitting the ‘regroup and fight back’ part is bashing.
But as I recall you and others here took offense when someone made an remark about “folding quickly” in WW2 . So you can’t have it both ways, if that remark about folding quickly is “bashing” and hence banned than so too must the remark about the Brits running back to their island be deemed as “bashing” and banned.
The day that I see you express outrage about American & British bashing, than I will express outrage about French bashing. You can’t have it both ways, asking others to express outrage over French bashing while you don’t express outrage over American & British bashing.
I am not surprised that outrage was expressed that somone dared to mention the fact that French police rounded up Jews for the Nazis. Don’t you know all hell will break loose in this site if anyone dares tell unpleasant historical facts about the discrimination of Jews in France prior to the Nazis. J’accuse.
Of course mentioning discrimination against Jews in the USA & Britain is pefectly fine but not in France. Hypocrisy doesn’t do justice to this kind of mentality.
Reminder: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
It has come to this.
Miquelon.org is now under assault by a bunch of US-style townhall crazies who come here with their registered weapons and scream “Nazi, Hitler, Pétain, Vichy” over and over in all topic threads.
Remember crazy lady from the McCain rallies? Have you seen looney brains from the Barney Frank town hall meeting?
By engaging these users we are feeding the trolls. They will cry hypocrisy, cowardice and bloody murder, but their favourite battle cry will be anything that tends towards a new confirmation of Godwin’s law.
May I remind these trolls this is not F*ckFrance, PaveFrance nor Charles Bremner’s comment section. This is our space, our oasis where we get to think, plan and debate intelligently with others. But be warned, we reserve the right to shut you down when trolling becomes obvious.
Just because a thread is about the 100 000 men who died for France in May 1940 and saving the BEF does not mean we are side-stepping the heavy burden of Vichy – those are different issues. Our purpose, in many threads, is to dispel the “surrender monkey” meme.
Let’s not boil all of World War II down to the same-old same-old.
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:57am
“we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty”
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day. [Admin note: wrong on so many levels. But engaging this issue would only please this troll. Will not feed the troll.]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:30am
I just hope you don’t have any Jewish members, because im sure they will be offended by your collective lack of guilt. [Admin note: you’re wrong. Answering you with any more precision would be feeding the troll. Users here discuss French bashing topics, not what heritage they have. When dealing with history, we deal with precise issues such as surrender/cowardice memes. This is unrelated to other WW2 issues we are painfully aware of, in part thanks to the excellent education we get on these topics in France]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 3:21am
France Nazi, France Nazi, France Nazi
[Admin: I’m approving the messages above to illustrate the type of comments this user was intent on making on this site. This user is currently banned]
May I share with you one of my latest reddit comments. I don’t like making these kinds of statements, but from time to time it is necessary to remind readers history is not as simple as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and Casablanca.
Yes, yes, anybody who dares tell unpleasant facts about France relevant to the topic being discussion….after all Stanhope is talking about WW2 and “saving’ France, is now a townhall crazy. Whats next? I am waiting with bated breath for the next attack.
A troll is one who never discusses the points put forth such as whether if “folding quickly” is bashing but the Brits “running back” is not bashing etc etc. instead indulges in personal attacks .I would say the owner of this blog reveals himself to have all the characteristics of a troll . He doesn’t address any of the points I have raised maybe because it raises some uuncomfortable truths about the double standards and hypocrisy in this site, instead he makes personal attacks thereby revealing his own mentality without realizing it. Of course now I will be banned for stating exactly what he did.
Instead of pompously declaring this to to be a site for “intelligent” debate. Well, of course if remarks about Brits running back to their island is what is deemed “intelligent” debate over here, need one say more? I suggest the owner of this blog come clean and declare this to be a propaganda site . At least be honest.
I will say this again, it is not a mere coincidence that the 3 ideologies that rely heavily on propaganda – communism, fascism & nazism were made in Europe. Propaganda is a very highly developed art form in Europe and Europeans tend to be very good at propaganda. When Europeans come face to face with someone whom they can’t bullshit with their propaganda they turn nasty and mean. It never fails
The Nazis used IBM codes? The Nazis also used trains to transport Jews ..so are the manufacturers of those trains also guility of complicity in genocide?
Je vois pas trop le but de ton discours Sharon… Si c’est pour dire que les Américains sont les gentils et les Français les gros méchants, que les Américains sont supérieurs aux Français… autant dire directement le fond de ta pensée. L’obsession américaine de peindre l’ensemble de l’histoire France en noir (qui se limite à Vichy comme chacun sait) est surtout le reflet d’un manque de connaissance mélangé à un étrange sentiment d’infériorité…
Can you ban that Sharon troll already ?
She’s funny in a tragic kind of way but she’s obviously never going to contribute anything else than ranting about Hitler and fascism.
She couldn’t care less about French-bashing which is the raison d’etre of this blog.
FrançaoisA, you’re absolutely right. But I don’t think Sharon troll understands French.
ps: oh yeah and the Brits did run back to their island. Deal with it.
Half truth ? Sure.
But that’s only one half truth about the Brits buried among the hundreds of “half-truths” about the French you and your pals are so fond of.
Which as a good anti-French troll you consider truth.
Here’s hoping to never see you post a single comment on this blog again.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
Are we in 1945 or 2009 ? Riddle me this, genius. Lest I remind you how a significant portion of your compatriots lived under segregation long after Vichy…
Alex
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.
I was born in 1982. What is the date for my trial, master ? It’s about time I answered for the crimes I committed at the behest of the Vichy government.
Seriously, your ignorance about French history and life in general could fill volumes. I pity you. But hopefully you’re still a teenager and you still have some time to turn your life around.
Now, you want me to answer for what others wrote in this blog?
kindly address your objections about those remarks to the person who made them. Thanks in advance
I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing.
PS: Also kindly cut down on the lies, I have never mentioned Hitler. But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth?
On the subject of the holocaust, there may have been discrimination against Jews in France and other European countries but there was no public support for/or party advocating murder of Jews.
By murdering Jews in the countries they occuppied, the Germans ensured other European countries would also have the blood stain of genocide. If the German occupiers had not demanded the Jews be handed over, there would have been no genocide of Jews in the occupied countries, so the blame should go to the occupiers and their helpers, the vast majority of occupied peoples’ were bystanders to this genocide.
Wow.
Excellent.
I did not expect that.
Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war. So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”….hmmm…Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to them vice versa.
Unless of course there is a double standard : )
It all goes along like the Native American Osage saying, “When an ally is wronged and needs our courage, we will come to their aid”. – As told to me by an Osage friend in high school.
Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war. So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”
On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…
On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…
well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?
Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.
well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?
An innocent comment from rocket with no intention of trolling and starting a flame war of course…
Your sole contribution to miquelon.org so far consists of belittling miquelon’s work, viciciously attacking me and trolling with the intention of starting a flame war.
Man, you got this stuff down to an art. You’re good.
But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling : )
Why Stanhope is funny and accurate: he turns a common anti-French diatribe on its head by stating something I – we – have always said:
a) the sacrifice – especially WW 2 – of some is not to be used for political gain by anyone for any reason, especially today. World War 2 only makes sense within a specific time frame, during a specific era. Using any WW 2 event outside of the context of this war is political histrionics of the worst kind.
b) who was guilty of the worst abuse of our collective memories, specifically World War 2? The New York Post, Andy Rooney, Dennis Miller, Jay Leno, Fred Barnes, Steve Dunleavy, Jonah Goldberg to name a few. Anyone who has even bothered with the French Bashing section of this site knows this.
So given the scope [tv, radio, press, politicians], depth and length [2003-2009 including the long tail of pop-culture] of (b) – yes many French citizens and francophiles responded in kind by raising the historical record of the War of Independence. I personally do not subscribe to this line of rhetoric, but I understand those who do given the confines and nature of their conversations.
Those who claim there is a double standard on this site, specifically Sharon, are trying to impose a simplistic dualism on the issue in a bid to split readers and users into two very distinct groups. We remember George W. Bush’s famous “You’re either with us, or against us” policy. Au suivant.
Rocket’s comment is another classic case of (a) – see above. It is historical reductionism at its worst and a vain attempt at collectively and perpetually holding us responsible for the actions of some in a different time. This entire website – excluding comments which are the responsibility of respective commentators – has always fought against this type of reasoning.
Wow! So anybody who states the obvious that Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to the French as well is immeditely attacked with false accusations of trying to split readers and compared to Bush. Accordint to this fascist mentality anybody who doesn’t agree with the party line must be a (gasp!) Bush supporter. LOL And all this because I stated the obvious.
Anybody who doesn’t toe the party line is immediately attacked with false accusations. Only fawning admiration for Stanhope’s remarks are allowed in this site, gee I wonder what will happen if somebody points out another obvious fact….Stanhope knows very well that when people say ‘we saved your ass in ww2″, they don’t mean themselves personally. So what Stanhope actually did was misrepresent in order to get a joke. Heaven forbid that anybody should point this out as it will surely get another false accusation thrown , I am wating with bated breath to be attacked now. Apparently the truth is too hard for some to bear.
I’m just an old man from Oklahoma, but, I have always thought that a positive comment, regardless of context, is always appreciated more than a bashing comment. Human nature, if you were to ask me. Again, I suggest the allies, despite differences of opinion, stand together in promoting democratic principals. Positives deserve praise, differences deserve critism, not bashing. It’s only my opinion, not a statement of absolute fact.
Inflammatory rhetoric used in comment 3230: attacked (2) / false accusations (2) / fascist mentality / party line (2).
“The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling : )
Remarks such as ?
And in what context are they being made ?
Aren’t they always in response to anti-French comments ?
Pretty hateful piece of French-bashing from an Irish newspaper.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-french-frankly-i-couldnt-give-a-crepe-about-their-view-of-the-world-1855207.html
I haven’t read the article, but that strikes me as odd considering both France and Ireland mostly had good relationships unlike England*. It’s hard to believe the editors would accept this, given it’s in a country that stayed neutral during WWII, never joined NATO, supported German reunification in 1990 and adopted the euro in 2002. I’m confident maybe this isn’t typical of the Irish press given the four points I mentioned. I could be wrong, though.
*England =/= the UK
Marc
I don’t hold you responsible for the WWII collapse. I am slightly above that. I don’t hold you responsible for being French and you should be proud of that just as anyone should be proud of their nationality. What I am saying is that you often make a mountain out of a molehill to put it in simple terms. When you speak about 7 anti French tweets a week but you don’t bother to inform your readers that there are millions of tweets per day. When you drive to California to educate Jay you don’t realize the machine you are dealing with and you think you are going to give Mr. Leno a history lesson as your other comments. The guy’s interested in ratings. point!!! 7 tweets is a very low percentage and you act as if the sky is falling on poor France. This is what I don’t understand, where this victimization which you seem to have comes from. There is freedom of speech. You may not like it but thank goodness it exists. It gives you the right to express yourself but don’t forget it also gives those who don’t agree with you the right to express themselves also and on their own conditions whether you like it or not.
A French person can criticize France but lest someone else do it you go nuts.
“The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
n’est ce pas Marc?
Fred
“Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.”
Oh Frederic please. A bit of nitpicking and you feel well. I suggest you brush up on the English language a bit and maybe you can explain the difference between you and you to me.
With such pedant remarks as yours I have absolutely no chance. Please visit this site below.
http://www.hitentertainment.com/barney/flash_mx/sites/player.asp
Rocket, I construe your point as well taken. I do believe that, in this high speed information world, that expressions of free thought move around the world providing accurate and inaccurate information and quite a bit of rather vile, mean-spirited points of view. There are pro and anti sites on an unbelievable number of subjects, conservative vs liberal, pro America vs anti America, pro UK vs anti-UK, pro Islam vs anti-Islam, on and on, you get my point.
I see this site as a “pro-French monitor of bias against France, its’ culture, history, etc. It iexists because we happen to live in free democracies where people can choose what they read. I am rather proud of what Miquelon.com stands for and I am glad to receive its’ point of view. If one does not appreciate this viewpoint, and do not want to receive its’ expression, then that person is more than welcome to look elsewhere.
Rocket, in your last comment you provided sound insight that provides one to pause and consider the balance of a point of view. This is a constructive contribution and I applaud you for it. I do remind you that one person controls the overall thrust of this site and, as in any conversation, he who controls the plug to the microphone, controls the conversation. Miquelon requests politeness and he deservs that.
Fred, you’re a King among man. I wish I had your patience.
You gotta love rocket, though.
The guy bashes the French for years and then has the gall to come here of all places ( I guess just bashing the French on other blogs, which shall remain nameless, isn’t satisfying enough anymore) and lecture the people he offends on a daily basis about voicing their disapproval of a situation he has helped create and still helps perpetuate.
Then he adds insult to injury by belittling miquelon’s work who has documented and researched French-bashing thoroughly for years…
To me, that’s more insulting than any cuss words even though it technically doesn’t violate the Blog Comment Rules.
That goes even beyond trolling at this point. It’s a pathological obsession with French-bashing and its opponents. He just can’t stand that such places as miquelon or SF’s blog exist. He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way.
You will always see the rockets of the world come here on the anti French-bashing blogs to lecture us about overreaction and freedom of speech (never mind that the rockets of the world will go ballistic every time you criticize the good ol’ US of A and will harass you until they have successfully suppressed your opinion. They breathe hypocrisy and double standards after all) but for some reason you will never see them giving their lectures on the fu**france.com or the no pasaran which generate about 500 times more comments a day than miquelon and Superfrenchie put together.
And I’m not even mentioning Bremner’s blog where the folks still haven’t gotten over Vichy France…
Barney, seems that there will always be people who are interested in bashing and hating someone or something not of their own. There are French bashers but I understand that there are American bashers in the streets of the Middleeast and , right now, I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some Americans bashing their healthcare systems. The truth, though often reletive, can still be found.
As far as patience with the “roudies”, this really isn’t as bad as I listened to in cafes accross the US earlier in this decade. “Nuke Paris, F***this or that aspect or all of the French. When confronted, they usually recognized the absurdity of their comment. The point was to make them aware of their comment and its’ meaning compared to what they really wanted to say. The same thing applys to our pro-French stance. We love the gift of the French Nation and deeply defend its’ contribution to the World, but, in doing so, we must remember that we do not complain about the greatness of any other nation, they deserve their due, we only are addressing the retoric of certain individuals who happen to belong to a paticular nationality. To move beyond hate to meaningful discourse sometimes takes diplomacy but it always takes patience.
Rocket, the twitter issue not – as you put it – making a mountain out of a molehill. I am currently running an experiment on twitter and will report about it shortly. And yes, now that twitter has gone “gen-pop”, idiocy now has a new avenue. There are plenty of racist, offensive and idiotic tweets, the issue of French bashing is ours so we’ll deal with that – especially when they’re made by CEOs or well known actors and journalists.
As well, I believe the French bashing I am monitoring on twitter (and Youtube, reddit, huffingtonpost and other web 2.0) is part of what I call the long tail. I don’t see the twitter issue in isolation but as part of a general trend of acceptable of anti-French commentary in popular culture.
You are welcome to trivialize my work, to put down our efforts to “educate Jay”, but we will never listen to people like you. I believe we can make a difference through action, through inspiration, through communication.
Barney
While your comments pass.
“He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way”.
I mentioned on this blog a few posts ago how you usurped Superfrenchie’s name on another blog but my comment was put into moderation and the post was locked down tighter than a Texas jail during a riot. Interesting non?
Roquet,
As for the load of delusional bs you have written about me (and your involvement lol²) regarding my participation on Bremner’s blog under SF’s pseudonym, there is a thread dedicated to it. Miquelon’s policy I believe. http://www.miquelon.org/2008/11/09/huis-clos/
I hate to shatter your little scenario there, but the whole thing has already been discussed and as you can see I’m still here.
Oh, and in case you harbored any delusions about being SF’s pal and apparently you do, here’s what you “pal” Denis thinks of you:
Some of the commenters on his blog are also among the worst anti-French bigots anywhere online (believe me, I know. Some of them once roamed sf.com, before getting banned.)
http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1594
A ringing endorsement indeed. lol
Intéressant non ?
Any more messages about past feuds and what posters did elsewhere, as well as further personal attacks will be unapproved immediately. We’ve been through this already (3).
Sharon:
What happened to the British at Singapore during WW II; or, at Gallipoli
in an earlier time ? What happened at Kasserine Pass during WW II –in this case to American forces ? [Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse]
Midwest Fred
Thank you Marc. By your last comment and by once again putting my comment in moderation becasue it doesn’t fit your agenda. You have proven that YOU sir, as you like to accuse other, are a coward indeed.
[Note from admin: this message is staying up. All others from this user will now be unapproved.
Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse, or contain materials deemed inappropriate. If your comment is removed or modified, and you attempt to post it or something similar again, your IP will be banned.]
#24
Another great contribution to this blog by our friend, roquet.
Dear webmaster,
You may use disemvoweling techniques for these kind of contributions:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disemvoweling
Then:
– the post is not censored: people are allowed to decipher the message, in case it is that interesting,
– but ill-tempered contribution will lost most of their negative power.
Yours,
Frédéric
I thought personal insults & attacks were against the rules of the blog , so I wonder why the person who made personal remarks about me ( “that your personal life reads like that of one of the Churchill daughters, sordid enough”) was not reprimanded. Gee what a surprise.
[Admin note: a simple private email would have sufficed]
When people stoop to making remarks about another poster’s personal life they must be pretty desperate. When you can’t argue the facts……
Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse
****************************************************
[edited as per rule 4]
Of course now I will be banned for pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and double standards in this blog. Apparently the rules only apply to some . [Admin note: a simple email would have sufficed]
@Fred Orth : ” I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some Americans bashing their healthcare systems”
It pales in comparsion to all those years of viscious America bashing by the Brits and Canadians during the Bush years. So, they really can’t complain can they? If they do it will be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Now Fred if only you were as concerned about bashing America as you are about French/British/Canadian bashing.
Sharon, you could have raised that question privately, a simple email would have sufficed.
But your incessant need to patronize me, your passive aggressive attitude along with your attempt at self martyrdom are not helping the situation.
Sharon, I give up on further explanations of the difference between individuals and National Governments. Suffice it to say that I agree, Barney should not have made personal attacks, I strongly disagree that there is bashing, on this site, intentially directed against the people of the US or against America. Bashing against bashers, however, is not aimed so much as personal as it is aimed at the words expressed, even though the original bashing is stated as personal.
@Fred Orth , I also give up on further explanations on selective concern for bashing. Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people, not government. Maybe if you didn’t notice any bashing of the people of the USA, it is because you agree with their sentiments. I noticed plenty of bashing against the ‘people’. And I disagree wtih you on another point, telling the truth about the US government is not bashing no matter how unpleasant. For example telling thet truth that there was water boarding at Gitmo is not bashing but telling lies, distortions, half truths about US government’s past polices in order to demonise and scapegoat the US is bashing. And there is a lot of that going on in this site . But of course God forbid that anyone should dare point out any unpleasant facts about French government policy, hell would break loose, but it is perfectly fine to tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
You can’t have it both ways, Bash the US on Monday and preach civility on Tuesday.
Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people,
Let’s see you express outrage once at French-bashing (plenty to go around on this site, take your pick) then you’ll be taken a little bit more seriously.
Call me paranoid but people who come here only to chastise the people who fight French-bashing, that is all you do here and that is a fact, do possibly have an agenda other than being concerned about this form of xenophobia known as French-bashing…
And the Brits leaving France to go back to their island to regroup and fight back is not bashing, it’s a fact. I thought you liked facts.
Furthermore it would be nice if you stopped assuming that your “team” deal in “facts ” when you talk about France while we tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
I hate to burst your bubble but you’re not the sacred holder of the truth.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?
It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
You should be deeply ashamed.
[Admin note: we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty of the actions of some. Also this is a Godwin argument: as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.]
Well, saying the British went back to their Island to regroup and fight back is not bashing but telling HALF TRUTHS such as running back to their Island while omitting the ‘regroup and fight back’ part is bashing.
But as I recall you and others here took offense when someone made an remark about “folding quickly” in WW2 . So you can’t have it both ways, if that remark about folding quickly is “bashing” and hence banned than so too must the remark about the Brits running back to their island be deemed as “bashing” and banned.
The day that I see you express outrage about American & British bashing, than I will express outrage about French bashing. You can’t have it both ways, asking others to express outrage over French bashing while you don’t express outrage over American & British bashing.
I am not surprised that outrage was expressed that somone dared to mention the fact that French police rounded up Jews for the Nazis. Don’t you know all hell will break loose in this site if anyone dares tell unpleasant historical facts about the discrimination of Jews in France prior to the Nazis. J’accuse.
Of course mentioning discrimination against Jews in the USA & Britain is pefectly fine but not in France. Hypocrisy doesn’t do justice to this kind of mentality.
Reminder: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
It has come to this.
Miquelon.org is now under assault by a bunch of US-style townhall crazies who come here with their registered weapons and scream “Nazi, Hitler, Pétain, Vichy” over and over in all topic threads.
Remember crazy lady from the McCain rallies? Have you seen looney brains from the Barney Frank town hall meeting?
By engaging these users we are feeding the trolls. They will cry hypocrisy, cowardice and bloody murder, but their favourite battle cry will be anything that tends towards a new confirmation of Godwin’s law.
May I remind these trolls this is not F*ckFrance, PaveFrance nor Charles Bremner’s comment section. This is our space, our oasis where we get to think, plan and debate intelligently with others. But be warned, we reserve the right to shut you down when trolling becomes obvious.
Just because a thread is about the 100 000 men who died for France in May 1940 and saving the BEF does not mean we are side-stepping the heavy burden of Vichy – those are different issues. Our purpose, in many threads, is to dispel the “surrender monkey” meme.
Let’s not boil all of World War II down to the same-old same-old.
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:57am
“we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty”
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.
[Admin note: wrong on so many levels. But engaging this issue would only please this troll. Will not feed the troll.]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:30am
I just hope you don’t have any Jewish members, because im sure they will be offended by your collective lack of guilt.
[Admin note: you’re wrong. Answering you with any more precision would be feeding the troll. Users here discuss French bashing topics, not what heritage they have. When dealing with history, we deal with precise issues such as surrender/cowardice memes. This is unrelated to other WW2 issues we are painfully aware of, in part thanks to the excellent education we get on these topics in France]
Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 3:21am
France Nazi, France Nazi, France Nazi
[Admin: I’m approving the messages above to illustrate the type of comments this user was intent on making on this site. This user is currently banned]
May I share with you one of my latest reddit comments. I don’t like making these kinds of statements, but from time to time it is necessary to remind readers history is not as simple as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and Casablanca.
It was directed at a French Basher from the USA: Oh yes – France and Nazis. Hello historical reductionism of autistic proportions. Ever heard of the German American Bund, or Ford’s Nazi sympathies, Roosevelt’s Apparent Reluctance To Help Europe’s Jews or IBM’s concentration camp code system … but hey, just keep repeating “France Nazi France Nazi”
Yes, yes, anybody who dares tell unpleasant facts about France relevant to the topic being discussion….after all Stanhope is talking about WW2 and “saving’ France, is now a townhall crazy. Whats next? I am waiting with bated breath for the next attack.
A troll is one who never discusses the points put forth such as whether if “folding quickly” is bashing but the Brits “running back” is not bashing etc etc. instead indulges in personal attacks .I would say the owner of this blog reveals himself to have all the characteristics of a troll . He doesn’t address any of the points I have raised maybe because it raises some uuncomfortable truths about the double standards and hypocrisy in this site, instead he makes personal attacks thereby revealing his own mentality without realizing it. Of course now I will be banned for stating exactly what he did.
Instead of pompously declaring this to to be a site for “intelligent” debate. Well, of course if remarks about Brits running back to their island is what is deemed “intelligent” debate over here, need one say more? I suggest the owner of this blog come clean and declare this to be a propaganda site . At least be honest.
I will say this again, it is not a mere coincidence that the 3 ideologies that rely heavily on propaganda – communism, fascism & nazism were made in Europe. Propaganda is a very highly developed art form in Europe and Europeans tend to be very good at propaganda. When Europeans come face to face with someone whom they can’t bullshit with their propaganda they turn nasty and mean. It never fails
The Nazis used IBM codes? The Nazis also used trains to transport Jews ..so are the manufacturers of those trains also guility of complicity in genocide?
Je vois pas trop le but de ton discours Sharon… Si c’est pour dire que les Américains sont les gentils et les Français les gros méchants, que les Américains sont supérieurs aux Français… autant dire directement le fond de ta pensée. L’obsession américaine de peindre l’ensemble de l’histoire France en noir (qui se limite à Vichy comme chacun sait) est surtout le reflet d’un manque de connaissance mélangé à un étrange sentiment d’infériorité…
Can you ban that Sharon troll already ?
She’s funny in a tragic kind of way but she’s obviously never going to contribute anything else than ranting about Hitler and fascism.
She couldn’t care less about French-bashing which is the raison d’etre of this blog.
FrançaoisA, you’re absolutely right. But I don’t think Sharon troll understands French.
ps: oh yeah and the Brits did run back to their island. Deal with it.
Half truth ? Sure.
But that’s only one half truth about the Brits buried among the hundreds of “half-truths” about the French you and your pals are so fond of.
Which as a good anti-French troll you consider truth.
Here’s hoping to never see you post a single comment on this blog again.
How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding Jews up for the Nazi’s?
Are we in 1945 or 2009 ? Riddle me this, genius. Lest I remind you how a significant portion of your compatriots lived under segregation long after Vichy…
Alex
Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.
I was born in 1982. What is the date for my trial, master ? It’s about time I answered for the crimes I committed at the behest of the Vichy government.
Seriously, your ignorance about French history and life in general could fill volumes. I pity you. But hopefully you’re still a teenager and you still have some time to turn your life around.
Now, you want me to answer for what others wrote in this blog?
kindly address your objections about those remarks to the person who made them. Thanks in advance
I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing.
PS: Also kindly cut down on the lies, I have never mentioned Hitler. But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth?
On the subject of the holocaust, there may have been discrimination against Jews in France and other European countries but there was no public support for/or party advocating murder of Jews.
By murdering Jews in the countries they occuppied, the Germans ensured other European countries would also have the blood stain of genocide. If the German occupiers had not demanded the Jews be handed over, there would have been no genocide of Jews in the occupied countries, so the blame should go to the occupiers and their helpers, the vast majority of occupied peoples’ were bystanders to this genocide.