Miquelon.org The Fighting French

189 Responses to “Doug Stanhope and Saving the French”

  1. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Wow.
    Excellent.

    I did not expect that.

  2. Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war.  So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”….hmmm…Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to them vice versa.

    Unless of course there is a double standard  : )

  3. Fred Orth says:

    It all goes along like the Native American Osage saying, “When an ally is wronged and needs our courage, we will come to their aid”. – As told to me by an Osage friend in high school.

  4. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Likewise the French of today didn’t save the Americans during the revolutionary war.  So if any French person says “we helped you win the revolutionary war”
     
    On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…

  5. On the other hand the French only say that in response to “We saved yer ass in WWII so shut up!” so…

    well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?

  6. Fred Orth says:

    Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.

  7. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    well didn’t you fold during WWII quite rapidly?
    An innocent comment from rocket with no intention of trolling and starting a flame war of course…
    Your sole contribution to miquelon.org so far consists of belittling miquelon’s work, viciciously attacking me and trolling with the intention of starting a flame war.
    Man, you got this stuff down to an art. You’re good.

  8. But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling  : )

  9. Marc @ Miquelon.org says:

    Why Stanhope is funny and accurate: he turns a common anti-French diatribe on its head by stating something I – we – have always said:

    a) the sacrifice – especially WW 2 – of some is not to be used for political gain by anyone for any reason, especially today. World War 2 only makes sense within a specific time frame, during a specific era. Using any WW 2 event outside of the context of this war is political histrionics of the worst kind.
    b) who was guilty of the worst abuse of our collective memories, specifically World War 2? The New York Post, Andy Rooney, Dennis Miller, Jay Leno, Fred Barnes, Steve Dunleavy, Jonah Goldberg to name a few. Anyone who has even bothered with the French Bashing section of this site knows this.

    So given the scope [tv, radio, press, politicians], depth and length [2003-2009 including the long tail of pop-culture] of (b) – yes many French citizens and francophiles responded in kind by raising the historical record of the War of Independence. I personally do not subscribe to this line of rhetoric, but I understand those who do given the confines and nature of their conversations.

    Those who claim there is a double standard on this site, specifically Sharon, are trying to impose a simplistic dualism on the issue in a bid to split readers and users into two very distinct groups. We remember George W. Bush’s famous “You’re either with us, or against us” policy. Au suivant.

    Rocket’s comment is another classic case of (a) – see above. It is historical reductionism at its worst and a vain attempt at collectively and perpetually holding us responsible for the actions of some in a different time. This entire website – excluding comments which are the responsibility of respective commentators – has always fought against this type of reasoning.

  10. Wow! So anybody who states the obvious that Stanhope’s remarks can be applied to the French as well is immeditely attacked with false accusations of trying to split readers  and compared to  Bush. Accordint to this fascist mentality anybody who doesn’t agree with the party line must be a (gasp!) Bush supporter. LOL  And all this because I stated the obvious. 

    Anybody who doesn’t toe the party line is immediately attacked with false accusations. Only fawning admiration for Stanhope’s remarks are allowed in this site, gee I wonder what will happen if somebody points out another obvious fact….Stanhope knows very well that when people say ‘we saved your ass in ww2″, they don’t mean themselves personally.  So what Stanhope actually did was misrepresent in order to get a joke. Heaven forbid that anybody should point this out as it will surely get another false accusation thrown , I am wating with bated breath to be attacked now. Apparently the truth is too hard for some to bear.

  11. Fred Orth says:

    I’m just an old man from Oklahoma, but, I have always thought that a positive comment, regardless of context, is always appreciated more than a bashing comment. Human nature, if you were to ask me.  Again, I suggest the allies, despite differences of opinion, stand together in promoting democratic principals. Positives deserve praise, differences deserve critism, not bashing. It’s only my opinion, not a statement of absolute fact.

  12. Inflammatory rhetoric used in comment 3230: attacked (2)  / false accusations (2) / fascist mentality / party line (2).

    “The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

  13. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    But of course when offensive remarks are made about Americans, it is never trolling  : )
     
    Remarks such as ?
    And in what context are they being made ?
    Aren’t they always in response to anti-French comments ?

  14. Barney hasn't left the building says:
  15. Marc

    I don’t hold you responsible for the WWII collapse.  I am slightly above that.  I don’t hold you responsible for being French and you should be proud of that just as anyone should be proud of their nationality.  What I am saying is that you often make a mountain out of a molehill to put it in simple terms.  When you speak about 7 anti French tweets a week but you don’t bother to inform your readers that there are millions of tweets per day.  When you drive to California to educate Jay you don’t realize the machine you are dealing with and you think you are going to give Mr. Leno a history lesson as your other comments.  The guy’s interested in ratings. point!!!  7  tweets is a very low percentage and you act as if the sky is falling on poor France.  This is what I don’t understand, where this victimization which you seem to have comes from.  There is freedom of speech.  You may not like it but thank goodness it exists.  It gives you the right to express yourself but don’t forget it also gives those who don’t agree with you the right to express themselves also and on their own conditions whether you like it or not.

    A French person can criticize France but lest someone else do it you go nuts.

    “The worst readers are those who behave like plundering troops: they take away a few things they can use, dirty and confound the remainder, and revile the whole.” — Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

    n’est ce pas Marc?

  16. Fred

    “Rocket, I seriously doubt that Barney was President of France, or, maybe even alive, in 1940.”

    Oh Frederic please.   A bit of nitpicking and you feel well.  I suggest you brush up on the English language a bit and maybe you can explain the difference between you and you to me.

    With such pedant remarks as yours I have absolutely no chance.  Please visit this site below.

    http://www.hitentertainment.com/barney/flash_mx/sites/player.asp

  17. Fred Orth says:

    Rocket, I construe your point as well taken. I do believe that, in this high speed information world,  that expressions of free thought move around the world providing accurate and inaccurate information and quite a bit of rather vile, mean-spirited points of view. There are pro and anti sites on an unbelievable number of subjects, conservative vs liberal, pro America vs anti America, pro UK vs anti-UK, pro Islam vs anti-Islam, on and on, you get my point.
    I see this site as a “pro-French monitor of bias against France, its’ culture, history, etc. It iexists because we happen to live in free democracies where people can choose what they read.  I am rather proud of what Miquelon.com stands for and I am glad to receive its’ point of view. If one does not appreciate this viewpoint, and do not want to receive its’ expression, then that person is more than welcome to look elsewhere.
    Rocket, in your last comment you provided sound insight that provides one to pause and consider the balance of  a point of view. This is a constructive contribution and I applaud you for it. I do remind you that one person controls the overall thrust of this site and, as in any conversation, he who controls the plug to the microphone, controls the conversation. Miquelon requests politeness and he deservs that.

  18. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Fred, you’re a King among man. I wish I had your patience.

    You gotta love rocket, though.
    The guy bashes the French for years and then has the gall to come here of all places ( I guess just bashing the French on other blogs, which shall remain nameless, isn’t satisfying enough anymore) and lecture the people he offends on a daily basis about voicing their disapproval of a situation he has helped create and still helps perpetuate.
    Then he adds insult to injury by belittling miquelon’s work who has documented and researched French-bashing thoroughly for years…

    To me, that’s more insulting than any cuss words even though it technically doesn’t violate the Blog Comment Rules.

    That goes even beyond trolling at this point. It’s a pathological obsession with French-bashing and its opponents. He just can’t stand that such places as miquelon or SF’s blog exist. He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way.

  19. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    You will always see the rockets of the world come here on the anti French-bashing blogs to lecture us about overreaction and freedom of speech (never mind that the rockets of the world will go ballistic every time you criticize the good ol’ US of A and will harass you until they have successfully suppressed your opinion. They breathe hypocrisy and double standards after all) but for some reason you will never see them giving their lectures on the fu**france.com or the no pasaran which generate about 500 times more comments a day than miquelon and Superfrenchie put together.
    And I’m not even mentioning Bremner’s blog where the folks still haven’t gotten over Vichy France…

  20. Fred Orth says:

    Barney, seems that there will always be people who are interested in bashing and hating someone or something not of their own. There are French bashers but I understand that there are American bashers in the streets of the Middleeast and , right now, I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some  Americans bashing their healthcare systems. The truth, though often reletive,  can still be found.
    As far as patience with the “roudies”, this really isn’t as bad as I listened to in cafes accross the US  earlier in this decade. “Nuke Paris, F***this or that aspect or all of the French. When confronted, they usually recognized the absurdity of their comment. The point was to make them aware of their comment and its’ meaning compared to what they really wanted to say. The same thing applys to our pro-French stance. We love the gift of the French Nation and deeply defend its’ contribution to the World, but, in doing so, we must remember that we do not complain about the greatness of any other nation, they deserve their due, we only are addressing  the retoric of certain individuals who happen to belong to a paticular nationality. To move beyond hate to meaningful discourse sometimes takes diplomacy but it always takes patience.

  21. Rocket, the twitter issue not – as you put it – making a mountain out of a molehill. I am currently running an experiment on twitter and will report about it shortly. And yes, now that twitter has gone “gen-pop”, idiocy now has a new avenue. There are plenty of racist, offensive and idiotic tweets, the issue of French bashing is ours so we’ll deal with that – especially when they’re made by CEOs or well known actors and journalists.

    As well, I believe the French bashing I am monitoring on twitter (and Youtube, reddit, huffingtonpost and other web 2.0) is part of what I call the long tail. I don’t see the twitter issue in isolation but as part of a general trend of acceptable of anti-French commentary in popular culture.

    You are welcome to trivialize my work, to put down our efforts to “educate Jay”, but we will never listen to people like you. I believe we can make a difference through action, through inspiration, through communication.

  22. Barney

    While your comments pass.

    “He did the exact same number on SF’s blog too by the way”.

    I mentioned on this blog a few posts ago how you usurped Superfrenchie’s name on another blog but my comment was put into moderation and the post was locked down tighter than a Texas jail during a riot.  Interesting non?

  23. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Roquet,

    As for the load of delusional bs you have written about me (and your involvement lol²) regarding my participation on Bremner’s blog under SF’s pseudonym, there is a thread dedicated to it. Miquelon’s policy I believe. http://www.miquelon.org/2008/11/09/huis-clos/
    I hate to shatter your little scenario there, but the whole thing has already been discussed and as you can see I’m still here.

    Oh, and in case you harbored any delusions about being SF’s pal and apparently you do, here’s what you “pal” Denis thinks of you:
    Some of the commenters on his blog are also among the worst anti-French bigots anywhere online (believe me, I know. Some of them once roamed sf.com, before getting banned.)
    http://superfrenchie.com/?p=1594

    A ringing endorsement indeed. lol
    Intéressant non ?

  24. Any more messages about past feuds and what posters did elsewhere, as well as further personal attacks will be unapproved immediately. We’ve been through this already (3).

  25. Sharon:
    What happened to the British at Singapore during WW II; or, at Gallipoli
    in an earlier time ?  What happened at Kasserine Pass during WW II –in this case to American forces ?  [Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse]
                                                                                                    Midwest Fred

  26. Thank you Marc.  By your last comment and by once again putting my comment in moderation becasue it doesn’t fit your agenda.  You have proven that YOU sir, as you like to accuse other, are a coward indeed.

    [Note from admin: this message is staying up. All others from this user will now be unapproved.
    Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse, or contain materials deemed inappropriate. If your comment is removed or modified, and you attempt to post it or something similar again, your IP will be banned.]

  27. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    #24

    Another great contribution to this blog by our friend, roquet.

  28. Dear webmaster,

    You may use disemvoweling techniques for these kind of contributions:

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disemvoweling

    Then:
    – the post is not censored: people are allowed to decipher the message, in case it is that interesting,
    – but ill-tempered contribution will lost most of their negative power.

    Yours,

    Frédéric

  29. I thought personal insults & attacks were against the rules of the blog , so I wonder why the person who made personal remarks about me ( “that your personal life reads like that of one of the Churchill daughters, sordid enough”) was not reprimanded. Gee what a surprise.

    [Admin note: a simple private email would have sufficed]

    When people stoop to making remarks about another poster’s personal life they must be pretty desperate. When you can’t argue the facts……

  30. Blog Comment Rule 4: All comments must be intelligent and civil. Miquelon.org, which is a private project, welcomes debate and does not “censor”. It does, however, remove or modify comments that are ill-tempered or do not contribute to civil discourse

    ****************************************************
    [edited as per rule 4]

    Of course now I will be banned for pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and double standards in this blog. Apparently the rules only apply to some . [Admin note: a simple email would have sufficed]

  31. @Fred Orth : ” I’m sure that Canadians and Brits are a bit upset about some  Americans bashing their healthcare systems”

     It pales in comparsion to all those  years of viscious America bashing by the Brits and Canadians during the Bush years. So, they really can’t complain can they? If they do it will be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Now Fred if only you were as concerned about bashing America as you are about French/British/Canadian bashing.

  32. Sharon, you could have raised that question privately, a simple email would have sufficed.

    But your incessant need to patronize me, your passive aggressive attitude along with your attempt at self martyrdom are not helping the situation.

  33. Fred Orth says:

    Sharon, I give up on further explanations of the difference between individuals and National Governments. Suffice it to say that I agree, Barney should not have made personal attacks, I strongly disagree that there is bashing, on this site, intentially directed against the people of the US or against America. Bashing against bashers, however, is not aimed so much as personal as it is aimed at the words expressed, even though the original bashing is stated as personal.

  34. @Fred Orth , I also give up on further explanations on selective concern for bashing.  Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people, not government.  Maybe if you didn’t notice any bashing of the people of the USA,  it is because you agree with their sentiments. I noticed plenty of bashing against the ‘people’.  And I disagree wtih you on another point, telling the truth about the US government is not bashing no matter how unpleasant. For example telling thet truth that there was water boarding at Gitmo is not bashing but telling lies, distortions, half truths about US government’s past polices in order to demonise and scapegoat the US is bashing. And there is a lot of that going on in this site . But of course God forbid that anyone should dare point out any unpleasant facts about  French government policy, hell would break loose, but it is perfectly fine to tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.

    You can’t have it both ways, Bash the US on Monday and preach civility on Tuesday. 

  35. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Making snide remarks about the British running away at Dunkirk is bashing of the British people,

    Let’s see you express outrage once at French-bashing (plenty to go around on this site, take your pick) then you’ll be taken a little bit more seriously.
    Call me paranoid but people who come here only to chastise the people who fight French-bashing, that is all you do here and that is a fact, do possibly have an agenda other than being concerned about this form of xenophobia known as French-bashing…

    And the Brits leaving France to go back to their island to regroup and fight back is not bashing, it’s a fact. I thought you liked facts.

    Furthermore it would be nice if you stopped assuming that your “team” deal in “facts ” when you talk about France while we tell lies, half truths, distort, twist facts about the actions of the US/British governments in order to demonise the USA/Brits.
    I hate to burst your bubble but you’re not the sacred holder of the truth.

  36. [unacceptable nickname] says:

    How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?

    It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding  Jews up for the Nazi’s?

    You should be deeply ashamed.
    [Admin note: we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty of the actions of some. Also this is a Godwin argument: as a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.]

  37. Well, saying the British went back to their Island to regroup and fight back is not bashing but telling HALF TRUTHS  such as running back to their Island while omitting the ‘regroup and fight back’ part is bashing. 

    But as I recall you and others here took offense when someone made an remark about “folding quickly” in WW2 . So you can’t have it both ways, if that remark about folding quickly is “bashing” and hence banned than so too  must the remark about the Brits running back to their island be deemed as “bashing” and banned.

    The day that I see you express outrage about American & British bashing, than I will express outrage about French bashing.  You can’t have it both ways, asking others to express outrage over French bashing while you don’t express outrage over American & British bashing.

  38. I am not surprised that outrage was expressed that somone dared to  mention the fact that French police rounded up Jews for the Nazis. Don’t you know all hell will break loose in this site if anyone dares tell unpleasant historical facts about the discrimination of Jews in France prior to the Nazis.  J’accuse.

    Of course mentioning discrimination against Jews in the USA & Britain is pefectly fine but not in France.  Hypocrisy doesn’t do justice to this kind of mentality.

  39. Reminder: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

  40. It has come to this.

    Miquelon.org is now under assault by a bunch of US-style townhall crazies who come here with their registered weapons and scream “Nazi, Hitler, Pétain, Vichy” over and over in all topic threads.

    Remember crazy lady from the McCain rallies? Have you seen looney brains from the Barney Frank town hall meeting?

    By engaging these users we are feeding the trolls. They will cry hypocrisy, cowardice and bloody murder, but their favourite battle cry will be anything that tends towards a new confirmation of Godwin’s law.

    May I remind these trolls this is not F*ckFrance, PaveFrance nor Charles Bremner’s comment section. This is our space, our oasis where we get to think, plan and debate intelligently with others. But be warned, we reserve the right to shut you down when trolling becomes obvious.

    Just because a thread is about the 100 000 men who died for France in May 1940 and saving the BEF does not mean we are side-stepping the heavy burden of Vichy – those are different issues. Our purpose, in many threads, is to dispel the “surrender monkey” meme.

    Let’s not boil all of World War II down to the same-old same-old.

  41. Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:57am
    “we’re not perpetually nor collectively guilty”
    Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.
    [Admin note: wrong on so many levels. But engaging this issue would only please this troll. Will not feed the troll.]

    Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 2:30am
    I just hope you don’t have any Jewish members, because im sure they will be offended by your collective lack of guilt.
    [Admin note: you’re wrong. Answering you with any more precision would be feeding the troll. Users here discuss French bashing topics, not what heritage they have. When dealing with history, we deal with precise issues such as surrender/cowardice memes. This is unrelated to other WW2 issues we are painfully aware of, in part thanks to the excellent education we get on these topics in France]

    Submitted on 2009/08/21 at 3:21am
    France Nazi, France Nazi, France Nazi

    [Admin: I’m approving the messages above to illustrate the type of comments this user was intent on making on this site. This user is currently banned]

  42. May I share with you one of my latest reddit comments. I don’t like making these kinds of statements, but from time to time it is necessary to remind readers history is not as simple as Saving Private Ryan, Patton and Casablanca.

    It was directed at a French Basher from the USA: Oh yes – France and Nazis. Hello historical reductionism of autistic proportions. Ever heard of the German American Bund, or Ford’s Nazi sympathies, Roosevelt’s Apparent Reluctance To Help Europe’s Jews or IBM’s concentration camp code system … but hey, just keep repeating “France Nazi France Nazi”

  43. Yes, yes, anybody who dares tell unpleasant facts about France relevant to the topic being discussion….after all Stanhope is talking about WW2 and “saving’ France, is now a townhall crazy.  Whats next? I am waiting with bated breath for the next attack.

     A troll is one who never discusses the points put forth  such as whether if  “folding quickly” is bashing but the Brits “running back” is not bashing etc etc. instead indulges in personal attacks .I would say the owner of this blog reveals himself to have all the characteristics of a troll .  He doesn’t address any of the points I have raised maybe because it raises some uuncomfortable truths about the double standards and  hypocrisy in this site, instead he makes personal attacks thereby revealing his own mentality without realizing it.  Of course now I will be banned for stating exactly what he did. 

    Instead of pompously declaring this to to be a site for “intelligent” debate. Well, of course if remarks about Brits running back to their island is what is deemed “intelligent” debate over here, need one say more?  I suggest the owner of this blog come clean and declare this to be a propaganda site . At least be honest. 

    I will say this again, it is not a mere coincidence that the 3  ideologies that rely heavily on propaganda – communism, fascism & nazism were made in Europe.  Propaganda is a very highly developed art form in Europe and Europeans tend to be very good at propaganda.  When Europeans come face to face with someone whom they can’t bullshit with  their propaganda they turn nasty and mean. It never fails

  44. The Nazis used IBM codes? The Nazis also used trains to transport Jews ..so are the manufacturers of those trains also guility of complicity in genocide?

  45. FrançoisA says:

    Je vois pas trop le but de ton discours Sharon… Si c’est pour dire que les Américains sont les gentils et les Français les gros méchants, que les Américains sont supérieurs aux Français… autant dire directement le fond de ta pensée. L’obsession américaine de peindre l’ensemble de l’histoire France en noir (qui se limite à Vichy comme chacun sait) est surtout le reflet d’un manque de connaissance mélangé à un étrange sentiment d’infériorité…

  46. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Can you ban that Sharon troll already ?
    She’s funny in a tragic kind of way but she’s obviously never going to contribute anything else than ranting about Hitler and fascism.
    She couldn’t care less about French-bashing which is the raison d’etre of this blog.

    FrançaoisA, you’re absolutely right. But I don’t think Sharon troll understands French.

    ps:  oh yeah and the Brits did run back to their island. Deal with it.
    Half truth ? Sure.
    But that’s only one half truth about the Brits buried among the hundreds of “half-truths” about the French you and your pals are so fond of.
    Which as a good anti-French troll you consider truth.

    Here’s hoping to never see you post a single comment on this blog again.



    How do imagine you have the nerve to talk about French discirmination when the Vichy were passing anti-jewish laws before the Nazi’s even asked them to?It’s the usual French hypocrisy, i suppose a bit of iternet French bashing is worse than rounding  Jews up for the Nazi’s?
    Are we in 1945 or 2009 ? Riddle me this, genius. Lest I remind you how a significant portion of your compatriots lived under segregation long after Vichy…

  47. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Alex

    Yes, you are collectively responsible for what happened to the Jews in France, you will have to face up to it one day.

    I was born in 1982.  What is the date for my trial, master ? It’s about time I answered for the crimes I committed at the behest of the Vichy government.

    Seriously, your ignorance about French history and life in general could fill volumes. I pity you. But hopefully you’re still a teenager and you still have some time to turn your life around.

  48. Now, you want me to answer for what others wrote in this blog?
    kindly address your objections about those remarks to the person who made them. Thanks in advance

    I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing. 

    PS: Also kindly cut down on the lies, I have never mentioned Hitler. But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth?

  49. On the subject of the holocaust, there may have been discrimination against Jews in France and other European countries but there was no public support for/or party advocating murder of  Jews.

    By murdering  Jews in the countries they occuppied, the Germans ensured other European countries would also have the blood stain of genocide. If the German occupiers had not demanded the Jews be handed over, there would have been no genocide of Jews in the occupied countries, so the blame should go to the occupiers and their helpers, the vast majority of occupied peoples’ were bystanders to this genocide.

  50. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    I have told you this before, the day you start to care about American/British bashing is the day I will start to care about French bashing.

    Sharon,  are you aware this is an anti French-bashing blog or are just retarded ?
    If you don’t care a lick about French-bashing then you have nothing to do here.

    And you seriously want to compare my off-hand remark about the Brits running back to their island written in anger in response to an unrelated and off topic comment about French cowardice  to a daily regiment of being called a dirty coward by your ilk ?
    Seriously ?
    Biggest strawman I’ve ever seen.
    You’re losing credibility by the minute.

    And what the hell does fascism have to do with the owner of a private blog putting down trolls like you whose sole aim is to disrupt the discussions on this blog ?
    Do you know what fascism really is ?

    My grand-parents escaped Spain and moved to France to escape fascism. Don’t insult them and belittle their suffering by using words like fascism that you cannot possibly understand.  You poor persecuted, you…

    Truth from you ? LMAO

  51. FrancoisA says:

    “But I gather mentioning historical facts such as that fascisim was made in Europe is a big no no for you…..have a hard time handling the truth? ” Sharon

    Et donc ? Ça serait  la preuve que les Européens sont inférieurs aux Américains ? Explique clairement ta pensée…

  52. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Et donc ? Ça serait  la preuve que les Européens sont inférieurs aux Américains ? Explique clairement ta pensée…
    Yeah,  in Sharon’s mind, the fact that fascism was first introduced in Italy in the 1920’s is some kind of  proof that the Europeans circa 2009 are some kind of inferior people.
    Never mind that millions of Europeans gave up their lives to fight that ideology. Although I’m sure Sharon is gonna tell us that’s a myth and that only Americans died fighting fascism…
    Never mind that Europe is also the birth place of democracy or the enlightenment.
    What’s Sharon’s heritage ? The Jim Crow Laws ?
     

  53. As I have also mentioned before the fascist MENTALITY  that gave birth to fascism in Europe is still very much alive among Europeans even though fascist parties have lost appeal. One aspect of the fascist mentality – demonising those who don’t agree with their biased views with false accusations etc..

  54. I am surprised that you don’t know your own European history. Not only was fascism merely introduced in Italy but fascism gained a substantial following in Spain, Germany, and should one dare say it ..France before it was discredited by the bloodshed of WW2.  So it was not only merely introduced but gained power & influence , won seats in parliament, formed governments, and enjoyed considerable popular support in Europe. Fascism was born and bred in Europe. 

    As for Jim Crow, I live too far away from that place to claim it as my heritage. So sorry to disappoint you.

  55. Sharon, You’re always trying to tell that europeans (except the brits )are evil in some ways and especially the french for some reasons… And to demonstrate this you always refer to the second world war with some examples and facts that are true sometimes but you’re hiding other true facts. Furthermore  I doubt anybody here will deny that what the vichy government did is shamefull, but for example you’re never mentionning the fact that although  our country was heavily occupied by germany and that a collaboation governement was in place french families had hide a lot of jews and “only” (Im saying this but 0.00000001% is already too much) 26% of them died which is a very few rate, only luxembourg had less : 20%; other countries with even fewer rates were either members of the axis (finland had like only less than 1% italy like 20%) or Denmark that because it surrendered very soon after germany declared war had all its civil laws managed by the danish government (which means no holocaust in denmark ). Now compare the 26% in france in similar countries like belgium 65% and netherlands 75% and you will stop bashing us for the holocaust, french has a responsibility in this but not more than most of other european peoples even though antisemitism appeared mainly in France in the 19th century. May I had that France has the biggest jewish community in all europe?

    Also If you want to judge a people with history , do not try to do it with a 6 years period, and read some goddamn books.

  56. May I suggest you read my post #45 before lecturing me. I am shaking my head in disbelief.
     

  57. Since you are very big on mentioning all facts,  one should also mention the fact that Denmark managed to get most of their Jews to safety to Sweden right under the nose of the Nazi occupiers.  Another fact omitted was how Bulgaria managed to save all their Jews .

  58. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    the fascist MENTALITY  that gave birth to fascism in Europe is still very much alive among Europeans even though fascist parties have lost appeal.

    Another fact from our resident truther.
    Where’ d you hear that ? Limbaugh ? Fox News ?

    One aspect of the fascist mentality – demonising those who don’t agree with their biased views with false accusations etc..

    Errr, all you have ever done on this blog is call us fascists;

    What false accusations ? That you’re a troll ? You’re a textbook troll case for Christ’s sake.
    And biased in what way ?
    This is an anti French-bashing blog dedicated to fight anti-French prejudices and deconstruct in particular the French coward meme so dear to your compatriots.
    What do you expect ? That we accept every crude comment that paints the French in a bad light with a smile on our face ?
    This is one of the purpose of miquelon.org, to set the record straight vis a vis the distortion of French history and the offensive anti-French jokes that result from from it.
    And of course some time we will kindly but firmly remind the people who come here to lecture us about past French misdeeds that they might want to examine their own history a little more closely first before starting their sermons.
    You can’t have your cake and eat it too. If you’re gonna bash he crap out of us, expect some back in return.
    This ain’t a charity.

  59. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    I am surprised that you don’t know your own European history. Not only was fascism merely introduced in Italy but fascism gained a substantial following in Spain, Germany, and should one dare say it ..France before it was discredited by the bloodshed of WW2.

    Errr, you might wanna read post #46 where I specifically mentioned Spain.
    Spain being the country my grandparents left for France to escape fascism. My exact words.
    And it gained influence really ?
    And oh really² ? Germany ? You don’t say ? Thank you professor Sharon. You’re so learned.

    Fascism was born and bred in Europe.

    No s#it. What other concepts were born in Europe ? And do you know this is 2009 ?

    As for Jim Crow, I live too far away from that place to claim it as my heritage. So sorry to disappoint you.

    Yeah because me and my family are big fascist supporters of course. As is miquelon of course.
    IOnly used the example of the Jim Crow laws (given your response I’m not sure you even know what I’m referring to) to show you the absurdity of your fascist reference. To no avail apparently.

  60. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Since you are very big on mentioning all facts,

    I thought that was your gig.
    You might want to mention that the total Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was about…6000 people. Or that Bulgaria was an axis power from the start and that Bulgaria was not occupied by German soldiers and was allowed a degree of autonomy in internal affairs. Not really comparable with France.
    Kudos to both nations  for saving their Jews, though.

    And you keep coming up with the example of us taking offense with “the French folded quickly” comment. Ok

    . But who made that comment ? Roquet.
    A guy who we know for a fact has been bashing the French non stop for years and who had never posted here before. So what do you think our reaction is gonna be when such an individual turns up here of all places and start spouting histrionics about WWII. The guy didn’t come here for a nice friendly chat, that much is obvious. So of course tempers flare. There is such a thing as context you know.

  61. i never post here usually although i ve been reading comments for a certain time now

    anyway,

    Sharon what s your point?

  62. Taking a look at  Sharon and the posture she has evidenced in comments on this blog is seen positioned the  — self-appointed–  court-jew(ess), striving to be identified in a taken-up, hopefully- illustrated-big splash among  other singular French bashers of the day. Court- jew methodology works in the interests of triumphalism; i.e., hitching  cause to that which is seen as “star player” to the scene.  Pertinent  to Sharon is the Anglosphere  –the “big buddy” to her fancied manipulation.  As an example, big players  –recent to the scene and most successful in this art of manipulation, include certain Neo-Con personages, elemental to the past Bush Administration.  It is hoped this perspective will shed some light on this woman, Sharon; for, well-poisoning is taking place in her posts.

  63. Fred Orth says:

    Fred (the other Fred), If Sharon is Jewish, great for her, she has every reason to be proud of her heritage and her religion. The issue here is point, not idenity.  Is anti-French bashing somehow or, in some cases, anti-Semitic? If so, please identify where and how, we are with you.  Please be precise and call for contribution rather than unleashing abstractions. This is an anti-French bashing blog designed not to communicate what is construed as transgressions by Nations but by individuals. We welcome opportunites to be better, but please grant that we can be a bit frustrated by lambasting.

  64. @LG
    My point is one cannot howl and scream about French bashing while being rabid American/British bashers themselves.  Bottom line practise what you preach.   Have the same standards for everybody, not one special standard  for the French ( example :  ‘French folding quickly’ in WW2 is bashing but British running away at Dunkirk is not bashing). There are other countless examples like this. It is ok to offend and insult Americans but not ok to offend and insult the French. The double standard etc.

  65. Barney :  You might want to mention that the total Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was about…6000 people.

    The Facts : From BBC

    one occupied country in Europe did more than any other to protect Jews – Denmark. The Germans had first occupied Denmark in 1940 but it was only now, in August 1943, after Danish resistance had inc…

    one occupied country in Europe did more than any other to protect Jews – Denmark. The Germans had first occupied Denmark in 1940 but it was only now, in August 1943, after Danish resistance had increased, that they imposed full military rule. Now German brutality was practiced in the open and the Danish Jews were hugely at risk.
    In September 1943 Hitler’s representative in Denmark, Dr Werner Best of the SS, a man whose hands were already bloodied by the persecution of Jews in France and Poland, met with the German diplomat, Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a known sympathizer of the Danes. According to their later testimony, Best first informed him that 8000 Danish Jews would shortly be rounded up…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skocUzic4Ls

  66. Fred Orth says:

    Sharon, As I remember my history, Denmark joined with the neutrals and was invaded, without any capable resistance. Germans were not prepared to waste troops and they were critical elsewhere. Over time the Danes preformed two great feats against Germany. First, the Danes were able to successfuly their local Jewish neighbors to Sweden by utilizing  the personel that the Germans left mostly unguarded on the ferries. Of the 6,00 to 7,500 (estimates) identified Jewish persons all but 284 escaped or remained hidden.Unfortunitely the 284, I believe, were killed.
    The Second service to defeat Germany, was the heroric vandalism, blockage and interuptions which tied up the German Forces from proceeding to the front in France and Belgium after D-Day. A proud and great contribution to the Allies, especially for a Nation of only Four million souls.

  67. FrancoisA says:

    This discussion has no goal… Sharon just wants to say that we are bad and fascist. She lives in another world… maybe she doesn’t know that the history of the USA is not that beautiful. I’m tired of the WWII arguments to explain everything, maybe we can change a little and talk about the indians, the slaves, the Bomb A…

  68. Please do not feed the troll. This person lives by simplistic dichotomies, historical reductionism and manicheistic logic. By clutching at straws, this person is trying to justify French Bashing by painting us as US or British Bashers. It’s their only weak angle and will repeat it time and time again expecting a different response from us.

  69. Fred Orth says:

    FrancoisA, Just because this issue of “fascist” is brought up, I see minimal reason to believe that it is directed towards France. Though is is sometimes absurdly used in describing French or German, Its’ definition is inmaterial to the subject of France. May be wrong, but I wouldn’t be supprised if there weren’t more monarchianistic that Fascist in France, Maybe reverse that for Germany, but still, not material. France and Europe are overwhelmingly pro democratic and, that, is the significant factor.
    There is a defense for bring up Denmark. They have been allied with France far more than functioning as enemies,  they are a people who are talented, intelligent and I am not aware of any serrious anti-France slant.
    Also, I don’t think that making threats to bash Americans shortcommings is any function of this site. The United States and France are Allies, period. What miquelon.com address is French bashing by individuals, regardless of the title, nationality, political disposition, or attitude.

  70. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    My point is one cannot howl and scream about French bashing while being rabid American/British bashers themselves

    Only in your sick mind do you see rabid American/British bashers here.
    You even called Fred Orth a basher. The guy is like the sweetest guy in the world.
    You’re an apologist for French-bashing and your wet dream is to silence people like us so you can feel better about your bigotry. You disgusting troll.

  71. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    The Facts : From BBC

    The fact is that the  entire Jewish population of Denmark during WWII was around 6000. To be compared with the 300 000 strong  in France.
    A little factoid you might want to to mention if you had any ounce of honesty in that sick mind of yours.

  72. Hey sharon, look at the comments here:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6049302/Tourists-warned-as-Asian-hornets-terrorise-French.html

    Time to write your own about the surrendering french…

  73. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/6049302/Tourists-warned-as-Asian-hornets-terrorise-French.html
    What DOESN’T terrorize the french??

    This just in…Bees declare victory after French surrender.

    Have the French surrendered yet?

    I heard that the Asian Hornets have some good deals on FAMAS……only dropped once.


    I guess the French tradition of waving a white flag of surrender didn’t work this time.


    Just wave white flags at the wasps, I hear that’s what the French do whenever they’re invaded.


    Oh, and by the way, the French national flag is not really the Tricolour, it is a white cross on a white background.

  74. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    ^^^^
    And it’s the same on every comment section that goes with articles about France. No matter the topic. It never fails just like clockwork.

    This American/British obsession with painting the French as cowards is exactly what the pathetic trolls like Sharon don’t want you to see.

    The disgusting troll is probably going to argue that the French do the same.
    And I will ask that troll to show us where we do the same and that troll will be unable to answer simply because we don’t.
    We don’t make fun of the biggest tragedies in American history to make jokes and dehumanize the American people every time Americans are mentioned in a newspaper article.

  75. @Barney, you still keep on claiming there were only 6000 Jews in Denmark? So little regard for the truth.  I suggest you do some research before making false claims about the amount of Jews in Denmark.  How the hell did the Nazis plan to round up  8000 Jews in Denmark (from BBC)  if there were only 6000 Jews in the country. Obviously you didn’t even bother reading my entire post before writing your page long rebuttal to it.  If you don’t even read my entire posts, but write pages and pages about me and my motives…well, need we say more?

  76. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    8000 ? Wow huge difference.  You got me there.
    Once again to be compared with the 300 000 in France.

    Anyway I’m gonna follow Miquelon’s advice and stop feeding you from now on, you ugly troll.

  77. @Fred Orth
    I was not saying Europeans are fascists today. If you had read my posts on this subject you would have realized that I was talking about the fascist MENTALITY.  These people are not fascists but nevertheless have not shed the fascist mentality – demonizing others by throwing false accusations, not debating the points raised but instead making personal attacks.  This site has plenty of viscious personal attacks on me……whereas I have not made personal attacks on anybody here. …so who has the fascist MENTALITY  in this site? 

    I was looking into the ROOTS of the fascist mentality and of course the roots are in Europe.  It is a historical fact, that fascisim was born and bread in Europe and even though it might be a discredited now in Europe, it appears the fascist MENTALITY  is alive and well in among some Europeans.

  78. What was the total population of France?
    What was the total population of Denmark?
    4 miilion Danes managed to save almost 8000 Jews, I would say thats a pretty good ratio.

  79. @Fred “Germans were not prepared to waste troops and they were critical elsewhere”

    Possible but since Denmark was a tiny country they didn’t need crack troops to even impose full miliary rule in 1943  (from BBC – in August 1943, after Danish resistance had increased, that they imposed full military rule. Now German brutality was practiced in the open and the Danish Jews were hugely at risk.”)
    ********************************************************
    the Danish cabinet rejected German demands for legislation discriminating against Denmark’s Jewish
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Denmark

  80. Before the attacks on me for mentioning the numbers of Jews and Danes start…..Who first bought up the numbers of Jews in Denmark and France?
    That would of course make people think about the total population of Denmark vis via France. Tough if people don’t like facts about difference in population between Denmark and France.  The truth is very hard to handle for certain people in this site.  All hell will be break loose and now the personal attacks will start ( hooray for the fascist mentality!)

  81. @Bob
    Take a look as these remarks…

    Fred  : “self-appointed–  [term removed], striving to be identified in a taken-up…………………..Court- jew methodology works in the interests of triumphalism; ”

    Time to write your own about how “Anglos” write lies about French anti-semitism. **

    [term removed]

  82. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Miquelon, how long are you gonna let that troll defile your blog like this ?

  83. FrancoisA says:

    Ce n’était pas du tout une menace, c’était seulement pour signaler une évidence : toutes les nations ont des pages noires dans leur histoire et il est stupide de regarder les peuples qu’à travers celles-ci.

    But please Sharon, continu to explain us that we have a fascist mentality, that’s very interesting…

  84. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    All hell will be break loose and now the personal attacks will start

    Now that the troll has made its intention explicitly clear, I think you have grounds to ban it.

  85. Sharon, why don’t you come clean and tell us what country you live in. I would love to know what you have done in that country to fight anti-Americanism? You will admit the country you live in harbours a lot of anti-American sentiment?

  86. Oh, I see the owner of the blog after telling other posters here not to talk to the “troll” has lowered himself to talk to the so called troll. Too bad, too late now to talk to me .  I will take the owner’s advise and not engage trolls.

  87. @Barney

    It was YOU who first mentioned the number of Jews in Denmark versus France…so does that make you a “troll” ? 

    I guess not, whenever the comparison is favorable to France it is not trolling but if the comparison is unfavorable to France, than it becomes “trolling”.  What do we call this kind of mentality?

  88. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    http://bit.ly/qlctQ
    You don’t like the fact the French are the most productive people in the world ?
    That’s ok. Talk about French surrender and jews and you’ll feel better.

    Talk about obsession…

    Chinese hornets invading France, French productivity…
    Any opportunity to revisit French history and self aggrandize one self by using the sacrifice of other people will do.

    Sickening.

  89. Excuse me, but it wasn’t me who first bought up Denmark’s Jews. 
    So, what gives ?

    And you should really stop this habit of your of making false accusations against me when you can’t argue with the facts. I never talked about French surrender.  This is not the first time you have accused me of things I have never talked about here,  do you have a problem ?

  90. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Excuse me, but it wasn’t me who first bought up Denmark’s Jews. 
    So, what gives ?And you should really stop this habit of your of making false accusations against me

    My post #84 had absolutely nothing do to with you, troll.
    Which would be pretty obvious to anyone with half a brain.

    I told you. I’m done feeding you.

  91. And my first post about Denmark’s Jews had nothing to do with you either yet…so I assume by your own definition you are troll.

  92. Just a reminder to readers and participants.

    While discussion is encouraged within the limits of acceptable discourse, we will continue to closely monitor the behaviour of users, most notably those that engage in trolling activities.

    A reminder about our mandate at Miquelon.org

    Miquelon.org is a watchdog group dedicated to documenting Anti-French activity in news and entertainment. Miquelon.org’s activities are of a purely academic and charitable in nature.

    This site is a private initiative and does not represent the official policies of any State or any political group from France or anywhere else.

  93. Here is what passes for “trolling” in this site.

    Person A :  Denmark only had 6000 Jews compared to 300,000 Jews in France.

    Person B: The total population of Denmark is 4 million .

    Persona A:   What a sick troll. Person B is a sick troll. don’t feed the troll.

  94. Another example of what is deemed “trolling” in this site

    Person A :  At Dunkirk, the Brits run back to their little island
    Person B :  French folded quickly during WW2

    outrage follows over “folded quickly” remark and it is banned and the person who made that remark is labeled a troll and banned as well for good measure

    Person C :  How come “brits running back to their Island” is not bashing but French folding quickly is bashing “? Isn’t that a double standard and Brit bashing.

    Outrage follows  : Person C is a troll who yells double standards and brit bashing as a trolling mechanism . They are all lies etc etc.

    (But no one addresses the issue that was raised by Person C, how come Brits running back to their island is not bashing?  And no one will ever address that issue, much easier to label person C  a troll to censor someone who points out  double standards)

  95. Fred Orth says:

    Went to a small dinner gathering. Interesting collection of people, India, Jordan, Palestine, Peru, Brazil, Iran and five native born Americans. The core subject was the US healthcare system (yes, I’m one of those insurance types – Stoploss underwriting) and the group was a equal mix conservative to moderate to liberal. Conversation evolved to the French healthcare system. All were very positive about what the French provided. Most expressed they expected nothing but the best out of the French. Good vibes. We also expressed concern over the use over here of the Brits and Canada as bad examples -general frustration about all the negative talk that they hear. It is so nice to be in a room with people of different political positions and have a civilized, intelligent conversation.

  96. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    ^^^^
    Well the discussions are always more civil and reasonable when people are face to face in a relaxed atmosphere.
    Especially when food is involved.
    Internet anonymity and the distance on the other hand is the perfect combination for people to act like total douches.

    On a somewhat related note:
    5 Ways to Stop Trolls from Killing the Internet

  97. Good food and good wine sure does better for a discussion than having a pizza while using the computer and saying BS on forums and blogs.

  98. @Thibault : “than having a pizza while using the computer and saying BS on forums and blogs.”

    I presume you are talking from personal experience. Maybe you should cut down on the pizza.

  99. Are you the one who was talking about not involving people into personal attacks or something?
    Maybe you should cut down on the bullcrap

  100. Person A:  having a pizza and writing B.S on blogs/forums
    Person B:  presume you were referring to yourself …
    Person A : person B is making personal attacks blah blah…
    Now who first insinuated that posters here were  eating pizza and writing B.S in blogs? Who first made that “attack” ?
     

  101. since sharon likes questions:

    Who’s more foolish: the fool, or the fool who follows?

  102. I’m sorry you felt aimed. I was emphasizing barney’s statements and referring to general attitude of the trolls .

  103. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Thibault.
    Don’t pay too much attention to trollie. It’s a bit confused

  104. @thibault
    After so many attacks aimed at me in this site, just look at #100 following your post,   you can understand why I took your comments as aimed at me.  I didn’t realize you were talking generally.

  105. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    See what I mean, Thibault ? lol

  106. Matters to chew on:
    The fact of the matter is that Britain did “bug out” at Dunkirk.  For example, Churchill had instructed British forces at Singapore to “fight to the last man”, being the  British enjoyed a 3:1 military advantage in strength over Japanese invading  forces.  The Japanese infantryman was tough  –much tougher than his British counterpart and so the British were defeated,  driven all the way down the Malayan Peninsula to their island fortress, Singapore   — Gen. Percival presenting the white flag to the Japanese  Commander, Gen. Tomoyuki Yamashita, so-called  Tiger of Malaya ( the Japanese had no air support during this campaign,   their infantry advancing south  –on bicycles, during battle lulls.  The British Brewster Buffalo, a single-engine fighter, had been employed in the  British defense to no avail (it was soon learned during the War in the Pacific that Japanese forces could hardly be beaten when opposing forces were equal in men and material).
    The British Expeditionary Forces in France,  realizing they could not meet the test in alliance with their French ally against the Germans did, in a sense, “bug out” at Dunkirk  (it was a hurried, desparate deparature in any man’s language, largely enabled by French covering forces).  In retreat on their island haven, they  –Churchill and his Cabinet–  fully expected that  America, under Pres. Roosevelt (anglophilic to the core), would save British interests and so it was to happen. The crux of the issue is that the British   –by pure circumstance–   had no need of surrender; indeed, they might go back to their little island and continue  with the British Empire intact!  Had Hitler not spoken of this in his Mein Kampf ?  Had Hitler not pulled his generals back at Dunkirk  –in effect giving the British time to re-access matters after having had  their butt kicked ?  As we all know, these British “cousins of the ‘German’ Saxons” might well rest assured; for, our Uncle Sam and truly their Uncle Sam would come the rescue.
    Touching on the German Blitzkreig of WW II:  Truly, an awesome attack operation by combined armor, infantry, air support   —  an “endless” onslaught, men/material of seemingly inexhaustable supply, effecting the outcome to be (what else ?).  The operation has been referred to as “rolling artillery” and evolved as a battle approach following WW I.  Keep in mind:  No  nation could have resisted the blitzkreig, presenting on Germany’s west border, WW II.  Consider: Had either the U.S., the Russian or the British nation been located adjacent to that border, chaos would surely have ensued with a rapid fold-up (I would have given Washington, D.C., perhaps a week or ten days with our then standing Army; London would have fallen in three days; the Soviet Regime, being more diffuse, would require more time   –perhaps several months; however, the fall of that state would happen [I state this with the German Army being fully engaged —  having no other concern and the Russians standing alone]). 
    NOTE : The British General Staff during WW I remained under strict orders to restrict battle losses; or, ” let the French do the dying”   –Barbara Tuchman,  The Guns of August.  The sequel to this admonition resulted with the British effecting few, if any, wilful closures with the German enemy; i.e., a deliberate straying on the battlefield that avoided combat  ( a serious matter of honor for the British; for, a confrontation was to occur later between French and British Commanders in the field). 

  107. Fred Orth says:

    Fred (the other Fred), While I recognize your insight and appreciate your points, I, gracefully, remind you that this is a blog for addressing French bashing. I strongly recommend that it is not in our interests , no matter how suttle, to bash Allies. This does not mean that we can’t critize individual comments or decisions, just be aware that the UK was an Ally in WWII and they very much are today. Just my opinion.

  108. Thanks Fred for that analysis. I presume that when the Brits went back to their little island as you put it,  Hitler left that little Island alone and Brits went back to having a cup of tea &  crumpets till the Normandy invasion.

    Who knew that the London blitz was invented by British propaganda, not to mention the Battle of Britain which no doubt was collaborative effort by Hollywood and the British propaganda machine.  Now if only we could find the director who made Coventry look like it was bombed to hell.

  109. I’m with Fred Orth, enough dissecting of history for political argument. While the subject is fascinating and quite thrilling to learn about, one cannot extrapolate to today’s issue of French bashing, save explain the roots of some of the prejudice that exists on both sides.

    Anybody can take a historical fact out of context, or turn it into a symbol – for I have done it – as a communication exercise – as well as John J. Miller, Mark Molesky or any user of any forum that has dealt with Franco-American politics.

    Let’s never forget:

    None of us are collectively and perpetually guilty for the actions of some
    None of us can collectively and perpetually take credit for the actions of others (the point Doug Stanhope is making here)
    Thank you

  110. Just out of curiosity, how do you know collective guilt doesn’t exist.  As far as I know the Germans after WW2 officially accepted collective guilt for atrocities committed in the name of Germany during WW2.

  111. Fred Orth says:

    There are situations where, at least the intelligent portion of the population, will accept a “collective ” guilt. A lot of Germans for the brutality towards Jews and Gipseys, French for the 1940 collapse, Americans for the treatment of Blacks, Native Americans, etc., British for the mistakes with colonialism. Mistakes are made, it’s one of the things that happens in a democracy. We’re all still Allies. Love them all.

  112. States can expressive a form of collective guilt.

    But no individual should have to carry that weight, save those who subscribe to some form of deep Catholicism.

  113. Fred,  I agee somewhat but I must say I don’t think  “mistakes” is the right word to use for genocide of Indians and slavery no matter who committed them, whether it was by european colonialists (Spanish, British, French, Portuguese) or later USA, Canada & Latin America. Also wanted to note that the genocide of Indians and slavery occurred throughout the ‘new world’,  not merely within American borders.

    As far as I know asking countries to take responsiblity for their actions is not assigning individual blame or guilt. I doubt that when the French parliament passed a resolution about the Armenian genocide they were saying  individual Turks are guilty and therefore each individual Turk is guilty and should carry the weight of that burden.

  114. Fred Orth says:

    Sharon, Good point, I couldn’t agree with you more. Hopefully, the Allies will never do it again. Getting the rest of the World on board, we may be facing an uphill struggle.

  115. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [The fact of the matter is that Britain did “bug out” at Dunkirk. For example, Churchill had instructed British forces at Singapore to “fight to the last man”, being the British enjoyed a 3:1 military advantage in strength over Japanese invading forces. The Japanese infantryman was tough –much tougher than his British counterpart and so the British were defeated, driven all the way down the Malayan Peninsula to their island fortress, Singapore – Gen. Percival presenting the white flag to the Japanese Commander, Gen. Tomoyuki Yamashita, so-called Tiger of Malaya……]

    Thank you Fred for all those facts. Food for thought for the lecturers and otherwise armchair generals who find their way to miquelon.org (by accident of course) from time to time. Since it wasn’t a French surrender, I wonder how many of our British/American friends are aware of this little factoid.

    Reminding some  people who desperately want us to admit our inferiority , and use double standards and doubtful histrionics to that end, of some conveniently widely swept under the rug historical truths is not bashing IMO.

    If reminding us of our folding fast in WWII is not bashing then reminding the “reminder” of some other historical fact as a reply is not bashing either.
    Trolls obviously lack intellectual coherence.

  116. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Some people will never learn.
    Freedom liquor, baby.

    [[Source: BBC

    Calls for a boycott of Scottish goods have been made in the US following the controversial decision to release the man convicted of carrying out the Lockerbie bombing.

    A website urging Americans to “Boycott Scotland” has been set up featuring a list of e-mail addresses for prominent Scottish and UK politicians, as well as contact details for Scottish newspapers and a list of Scottish products and companies. The site accuses the Scottish and UK governments of committing a “flagrant betrayal” by releasing Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi.

    Grassroots campaigns were also taking hold on social networking sites such as Twitter and Facebook, while calls have even been made to have Scotch whisky renamed as Freedom Liquor.

    Tourist body VisitScotland said it had received e-mails from Americans pledging to cancel holidays in Scotland.

    Read more : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8217857.stm ]]

  117. @Barney

    Prehaps if these “facts” had been proved with credible sources than one might consider them facts but till then……..

    It is quite amusing that anything negative about Britain is automatically believed as “facts” even though no proof is provided.

  118. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Prehaps if these “facts” had been proved with credible sources than one might consider them facts but till then…….

    I’m sorry, trollie. I forgot you were the utmost authority on what constitute facts and what doesn’t.


    It is quite amusing that anything negative about France is automatically believed as “facts” even though no proof is provided.
    There I fixed it  for you, trollie.
    Hey, trollie you’ve been trolling here for a while now.
    Have you browsed other sections of miquelon.org such as French Bashing ?
    You might learn a few things and stop clutching at straws.

  119. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    I was reading about anti-Polish sentiment in the United States and I noticed some similarities with anti-French sentiment in the same country.

    Notice how Fox had to apologize and vowed to never air that line ever again.

    There’s been many (and I mean a lot, a lot) of jokes and references to the French being cowards and nazi collaborators on American TV and radio (miquelon’s site is well documented in that regard) and yet not once had any Network executive apologized and vowed to never air the incriminating lines ever again. Au contraire.

    See that’s the difference  between other ethnic groups and the French. We don’t have associations or lobbies to defend us and put a stop to that anti-French bigotry.

    [[On November 14, 2007, FOX aired the episode of Back to You, “Something’s Up There“, which contained a controversial Polish slur. The slur involved Marsh trying to convince the show’s lone Polish-American character, Gary, to go bowling after work by saying: “Come on, it’s in your blood, like kielbasa and collaborating with the Nazis.” FOX later apologized on November 20, 2007. They vowed never to air the line of dialogue again in repeats and/or syndicated broadcasts. FOX stated that, “The line was delivered by a character known for being ignorant, clueless, and for saying outlandish things. Allowing the line to remain in the show, however, demonstrated poor judgment, and we apologize to anyone who was offended.”[51]]]

  120. Out of 300 million people in the USA, how many are taking part in the boycott Scottish theme?  Thousands ? hundreds? That would still make it 0.000001% of the population of USA.

    Those who are writing so enthusiastically of an anti-Scottish sentiment running rampant in the USA are indulging in wishful thinking.
     
     

  121. More facts to chew on:
    The London Blitz is “small change” when viewed across the totality of destruction wreaked upon singular European nations during WW II.  Most of us are aware of Dresden; or, payback time for London, Coventry, etc; however, for many Germans the firestorms that consumed Dresden are not to be forgotten nor forgiven.
    Regarding the Battle of Britain:  Primarily an “air show” with the British coming out ahead; i.e., being home-based and requiring only a landing for refueling to carry on with the show as needed.  Weather patterns were to eventually call the act on the Germans and that is factual history. 
    Regarding propaganda.  Harry Truman at one time made a remark 
    on the subject, saying:  The U.S. Marine Corps had a greater propaganda machine than did Stalin !  Now, if trollie Sharon suspects that Hollywood was called upon to effect favorable reviews of then British
    war efforts, who can disagree ?  To my mind the most noxious offender in this respect is the Fox Network with broadcast  journalist, Bill O’Reilly, being lead-bitch of the dogpack.
    Regarding The Tiger of Malaya, Gen. Tomoyuki Yamashita:
    This Japanese commander was executed (hanged) by Allied forces shortly after WW II.  He had been held responsible for war crimes taking place under his over-all command –said crimes occuring against Phillipino civilians during the Japanese “last stand” inside Manila.
    Jurists of repute would argue that local commanders held responsibility
    for what had occured; but, these men were all dead and someone had to answer.  Keep in mind that Yamashita had won a great victory at Singapore over the British  –said victory, it being proclamed by the defence at Allied war trial proceedings, ruling as the causative factor in his conviction.

  122. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[Out of 300 million people in the USA, how many are taking part in the boycott Scottish theme?  Thousands ? hundreds? That would still make it 0.000001% of the population of USA.Those who are writing so enthusiastically of an anti-Scottish sentiment running rampant in the USA are indulging in wishful thinking. ]]
    Of course we are aware of the absurdity of this boycott and that it’s a fringe movement by loons and extremists.  That’s not the point, trollie. You can’t even understand that ?
    This blog used to be an oasis where we could discuss and document French-bashing without having to argue trolls like you. Which we otherwise have to face pretty much anywhere else on the net.

    This is an anti French-bashing blog after all and since you don’t give a crap about French-bashing and since apparently from now on every post we make about French-bashing or related to French-bashing will be accompanied if not buried by your nonsensical bullcrap then this blog  is in danger of losing a lot of its interest (IMHO).

    I’m not sure what miquelon is trying to achieve by keeping someone like you around but I sincerely wish he’d reconsider. In the interest of this blog of which a lot of people care about deeply.

    Or you could do a) the mature thing, pack your things and leave of your own accord or god forbid b) actually start contributing something constructive to the blog.
    There’s no shame in going with a) since your trolling has been quite successful.

    And thank you Fred once again for a very informative post.

  123. Fred Orth says:

    Sharon, I think that you are right, the boycott is limited, but, no thanks to the outrage expressed on CNN, MSNBC, Fox, NBC, etc. PBS and NPR were, pretty much, neutral.
    Don’t like Scotland bashing either. I do get irritated with the leadership of a certain Nation in North Africa, though.

  124. About Lockerbie. Rendez-vous avec X.

    “C’est un véritable rebondissement ! La Libye ne serait sans doute pas impliquée dans l’attentat contre le Boeing 747 qui a explosé en 1988 au-dessus de l’Ecosse, à Lockerbie exactement… Ce que disait déjà Monsieur X en 1998. Aussi, je vous propose de réécouter intégralement cet enregistrement. Mais d’abord, j’ai demandé à mon interlocuteur pourquoi l’agent secret libyen, qui était considéré jusqu’à aujourd’hui comme le principal instigateur de cet acte terroriste qui a provoqué la mort de 270 personnes, sera rejugé et peut-être innocenté…”

  125. One tell tale sign of someone with a very weak point of view, is when they have to censor the opposing viewpoint. You can’t even rebuke one “troll”?

  126. @Fred Orth: Yep, you are right the Libyans pulled some strings (oil) to get his release.  Can’t blame the British government for looking after its national interests (access to Libyan oil reserves).

    When push comes to shove all governments put national interest first.  However the Libyans seem to have got carried away and their welcome home party with Scottish flags waving by Libyans has left a bad taste.

  127. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[About Lockerbie. Rendez-vous avec X.
    “C’est un véritable rebondissement ! La Libye ne serait sans doute pas impliquée dans l’attentat contre le Boeing 747 qui a explosé en 1988 au-dessus de l’Ecosse, à Lockerbie exactement… Ce que disait déjà Monsieur X en 1998. Aussi, je vous propose de réécouter intégralement cet enregistrement. Mais d’abord, j’ai demandé à mon interlocuteur pourquoi l’agent secret libyen, qui était considéré jusqu’à aujourd’hui comme le principal instigateur de cet acte terroriste qui a provoqué la mort de 270 personnes, sera rejugé et peut-être innocenté…”]]
     
    Ce serait un énorme embarras pour la communauté internationale, pas que l’Ecosse, mais il semble bien qu’on s’achemine quand même vers ce dénouement.

  128. Regarding Lockerbie:
    Time will tell if deals were indeed arranged between Britain (Scotland) and Libya for the release of the Lockerbie bomber; meanwhile, the scent of petroleum fumes remains sharply in the nose  of many Americans  found directly and indirectly affected by the bombing. We know those among us who  suffer the most will never have  their fill in the sense of a thirst for justice  —that being aborted by the actions of theScottish Minister. Perhaps we should come to realize that the action taken by the Minister more properly rests under diplomacy of a “type”; moreover, a type registered for the British under the label,  Perfidious Albion,  by  Roman occupiers during their 400 yr. stay of the island. 
    The call for a boycott of Scottish goods in this country would make no impression; inasmuch, being the derivation of many of it’s citizens, still recognizable in the flesh.  Make no mistake,  British Isle descendants –English, Irish, Scots, Welsh– consciously or unconsciously, more or less,  consider the other as “brethren” when the status quo of their likes and dislikes are seen to be “threatened” .  Christian Fundamentalist Religion is seen to best typify this fixed mentality ( we recognize, of course, their oft-expressed dislike if not hatred of  the other in the old country).

  129. This is not the first time western countries have made shameful deals which resulted in the release of terrorists.  Germany and France to name a few have done it and it is also known that some European countries pay ransom money to get their citizens freed from Somali pirates. 

    Those who express holier than thou attitudes towards the British over this Libyan affair seem to have a very short memory.

  130. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    ^^
    because the “scotch-bashing” is coming primarily from the evil French and Germans ?

    [:facepalm]

  131. There is no ethnicity called “Scotch”,  maybe you were referring to Scotch whisky?   Well, who knew people felt so strongly about a drink. LOL

  132. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    #127
    Yeah because that’s what really matters, trollie.
    The troll is down to correcting grammar errors now. Ans it fails once again.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch_%28adjective%29
    [ However, ‘Scotch’ is still in occasional use in England and Ireland, and common use in North America.
    1965, the historian A. J. P. Taylor, wrote: “Some inhabitants of Scotland now call themselves Scots and their affairs Scottish. They are entitled to do so. The English word for both is Scotch, just as we call les français the French and Deutschland Germany. Being English, I use it.[3] Preface to English History 1914–1945]

  133. Christ, what rock did Fred (midwest) crawl out from.
    His stream of conciousness ramblings would be hilarious if they weren’t so inaccurate. Where to start?
    The battle of Britain was an air show:  No, it was crucial to the course of the war, if the UK had lost then Germany would have gained control of UK air space and then would have tried to invade. At that point we were the only western allied country left standing.
    23,000 civilians were killed, 32,000 injured, 550 allied airmen killed and 2,000 RAF planes destroyed.  It was also important in that it caused  a shift in American opinion in that before many in the US thought that the UK could not survive An air show?! Please…
    Britain was not guaranteed American support in 1939 when the UK evacuated Dunkirk with over 200,00 allied troops including 120,000 FRENCH troops.  This evacuation mainly being caused by the ineptitude of the French generals .
    In fact, the USA did not join the war until 1941 and this was despite the majority of the American public being against it.
    This [DO NOT CONFUSE COMMENT SECTION WITH SITE] is pathetic. Fighting suposedly anti-French comments by propagating lies and half-truths about the British and denigrating the bravery of the British government  which in the main wanted to fight Germany and the British service men.
    I understand what you trying to do, but you are going about it in the WRONG WAY.

  134. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Trollie got some reinforcement, it seems.

    There’s still a possibility they’re the same person but our new friend seems to have a better command of the English language.

  135. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[This [DO NOT CONFUSE COMMENT SECTION WITH SITE] is pathetic. Fighting suposedly anti-French comments by propagating lies and half-truths about the British and denigrating the bravery of the British government  which in the main wanted to fight Germany and the British service men.
    I understand what you trying to do, but you are going about it in the WRONG WAY.]]

    Supposedly, huh ?
    Damn you guys aren’t even trying anymore. What happened to subtlety ?

    And what are you doing to fight French-bashing except for posting on an anti French-bashing blog to try and discredit the cause ?

    It’s half truth and lies when it’s about the British/Americans but 100% truth and valid criticism when it’s about the French, right ?
    Of course, massa.

    Who can’t take criticism again ?

  136. Fred Orth says:

    Well, here’s the old “we’re all allies” guy back to reinterate that 1) We ARE ALLIES and we should not bash France, the UK or the United States. 2) The issue here is French bashing since , oh say, 2000. WWII is old history, but it does seem to be the source of a lot of the bashing, so let’s keep our points relivent to reflection back, not fighting it again. 3) Criticism should only address individual or governmental statements, videos (which I can’t hear) or slurs – NOT NATIONS.
    This, of course, is only my opinion.

  137. Americans, justifiably outraged by the Scottish Minister’s abortion of justice in the Lockerbie bomber’s release, will find scant relief in the perspective offered by our trollie, Sharon, to the effect that “everybody does it” ; i.e., make the payoff that secures release of their national.  The fact that the Lockerbie bomber was a convicted felon, most deserving of his sentence  –most nations would have executed him– bears no resemblance to those innocent hostages seen taken and held for ransom. The Somali pirates, certain politically inspired groups in South America 
    and elsewhere, typify the latter . . . . . . and that’s “O. K.”  –ransom being paid to effect their freedom.  Since 2 + 2 still equals 4,  the  rationale
    espoused by Sharon is, for lack of a better word, moral rot; indeed, without justice you have nothing  (has  this woman been binging on haggis ? ).
    To Barney and to Fred Orth:
    Thanks for your succinct comments.  You guys are welcome to the grognard ranks.

  138. Nice blog. I’ve been reading it occasionally for a while now.
    Somewhat stormy discussion sometimes but that’s what happens when such topics are raised inforums. People will throw rocks at each other even when they (almost) agree on most things. Not that it happened this much in your columns though.
    Back to Doug Stanhope and this nice video. It corroborates lots of things that may be noticed in field. I have been working in international business for 10 years and both US and French (and others too but I’m trying to stick to this blog’s storyline) partners seem to grow more knowledgeable of each other (be it on cultural levels, historical levels, and not solely WWII, mind you, and so on) month after month. Call me an overoptimistic poor devil but things change and, if I agree with Miquelon’s “long tail” theory and reckon with France’s (Europe ?) share of anti-americanism, I also observe a very positive trend of mutual respect that might save us after all.
    Want to get rid of cliches ? Take part in international meetings and actually meet people from other countries face to face, you’ll be overwhelmed with newly gained knowledge and possibly wisdom (although I’m not at all claiming to be wise, ask my wife). For enriching it is to discuss Borat with a guy from Kazakhstan (and discover he’s 5 years ahead of time technology and business strategy wise), WWII and National socialist propaganda (is it Godwin again ?) with young German managers, 1950’s Hollywood propaganda and the Marshall plan’s contribution to US subsequent domination with my good friend Ian from Seattle, etc. etc.
    There will always be bashers, may this site and others contribute to shift their hate-filled undocumented (and probably time-consuming) speeches into intelligible constructive debates.
    This moment of optimism and pure merriment is brought to you for free. Enjoy. And keep up the good work.

  139. You seem to have good things to say about others but only critical remarks  about the USA ” hollywood propaganda & Marshall plans contribution to US domination”.

    So I am afraid since you didn’t practise what you preach, your sermon will fail on deaf ears. Now how about discussing “care packages” with those young German managers.

    I come into contact with a lot of Europeans in my line of work and thankfully the majority of them don’t have the bile displayed by some over here.  But I would be careful about swallowing wholeheartedly everything they say, Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc.  Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense. 

  140. So whats new?
    Big M’s response to Fred Midwest’s diatribes get  a slap on the wrist while Big M & Barney can spew insults and name calling with impunity.

  141. @BigM
    I am rather enjoying Fred Midwest’s Rush Lumbugh impersonation.
    It is quite entertaining. Leave him alone. LOL

  142. To the BigM:
    Forget it, Pommy, Hitler never entertained any serious notion of invading Britain.  Have you read Mein Kampf , wherein it was spelled out that the British Empire need only step-aside in “My Battle”; indeed, his plans for a 1, ooo yr. Reich entailed co-existence with the potential rival, living in peace, side by side (Hitler had a great admiration for Shakespeare, believing his works to be the embodiment of Aryan (German) genius; moreover, the Anglo-Saxon upper-class element of Britain could surely be brought around, he figured, having common blood-ties to their counterparts  in Germany [we note the Duke of Windsor’s exile to Burmuda during the war, it being feared his sympathies would further infect the rather “chancy” situation in Britain]). 
    550 airmen killed ( Company A & Company B ? ) you say; so, not an insignificant number being foreign nationals   –principally Poles.  Sadly enough, these same Poles were “treated like dirt” by the British at the war’s ending.  Look it up, facts are facts.
    You talk about a shift in American public opinion stemming from
    British-made efforts in the air.  Difficult to say, keeping in mind Roosevelt’s on-going, game-playing  in support of British interests at the time.  As mentioned earlier, Roosevelt  was anglophilic to the core and we must look back to James Madison to find an American President so close to being treasonous. One other point: Weather patterns (English weather) precluded the Germans from continuing on with their air strikes in the so-called Battle of Britain; this, as they were gaining the ascendancy. It has been said that two more weeks would have finished the job.  Mother Nature is fickle.
    Hitler’s confrontations with the British, such as they were, could be likened to a rivalry of street “punks” ; or, who would stand “first” in the neighborhood. Each presumed to carry a big stick though not entirely assured as to his prowess. It was to develope that in passing by each other on the city sidewalk, a “bumping” of the shoulders occured, each party not sure if the contact had been intentional and, more importantly, deserving of a response.  The more each worried about a “false” impression being formed in the mind of the other, regarding a supposed trait of weakness, would bring greater an eagerness to dispel any images of self-doubt. And so as happened, chancing on the street a second “bumping” was to occur; this, with a rapid turn-about  —   the most vigorous of the pair launching a “teach you” attack upon his opponent which resulted in a bloody nose.
    Any so it was to happen with Germany and Britain –a trouncing of the latter’s professional army that would cause his removal in excape from the continent; or, a signal reminder to “stand aside and stay out of the way, I have a job to do”.

  143. Pommy? So you are an Aussie..figures .
    After all, a lot of Irish convicts were sent down under.

  144. Marc @ Miquelon.org says:

    Thanks Jocoul for your comment, a welcome respite from some of the trolling in the comment section.

  145. @Marc, you’re very welcome, I thought we could use some soothing comments here, although it still sounded insulting to some, jeez

    @Sharon, sermon? where?

    US propaganda issue : just like everybody else (France, UK, Germany) did outright propaganda during WWII, and subtler propaganda (call it what you will) afterwards.

    Negative remark about France so you’ll feel better : I’m not proud of France’s dealing with the Algerian war. It was a random pick, there are many to pick from.

    I would be careful about swallowing wholeheartedly everything they say” – it’s not about swallowing, it’s about having an open discussion, freed from cliches, prejudices and taboos (and not feeling assaulted at every word).

    Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc. ” Most probably so, does it mean US media are not biased ? I need to call the US portion of my family so as to spread the good news.

    <Troll mode on>
    Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense. ” Yes, that’s how the US ended up in Iraq, but of course it was not propaganda (negative remark about France so as to make up for what I’ve just written so you feel even better : past and present leaders from France and their “obscure” friendships. Random pick again.
    <Troll mode off>

    Ciao

  146. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    What are we supposed to call people who come to anti French-bashing blogs to demand that we not only never express any form of criticism whatsoever about the British/Americans’ involvement in WWII (and that only after years of reading anti-French comments regarding WWII ) but are only too happy to trash France even further all the while never expressing outrage even once at French-bashing or even acknowledging the issue seriosuly ? Which wether they like it or not is why this blog exists;

    And seriously. What is trollie still doing here ?

  147. Nice posts Jocoul.

    Also I laughed at that : “Europeans are also a product of their media which is biased etc.

    What about foxnews? The fear issue in the american media? Don’t you think french-bashing might be a produce of the media? I can say: pretty much, seeing all the french bashing sentences listed on that blog and coming from mass-media or USA officials… sad

    But I don’t blame you Sharon cause : “Ignorant minds can very easily be fed nonsense.

  148. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[ I come into contact with a lot of Europeans in my line of work and thankfully the majority of them don’t have the bile displayed by some over here. ]]

    Maybe that’s because you don’t start the conservation with:
    oh and by the way before we begin working together, I’d like to tell you how much you acted like pussies during WWII and that if it weren’t for us you’d speaking German right about now. And if you dare say anything I’ll call you fascists and humorless pricks.  Now that’s out of the way, let’s begin”

  149. To Marc @ Miquelon.org:
    You no doubt are familiar with Longfellow’s, Evangeline, a poetic telling of the extirpation of  French inhabitants of  L, Acadie from the Maritime Region of Northeastern North America.
    Several years ago, I came across John Mack Faragher’s book, A Great and Noble Scheme ( New York; London: W. W. Norton & Company, 2005).
    This book, a landmark, narrates the history of this French people targeted for extinction by British imperials and nearby New Englanders.  Notable is found the enduring humanity of this people, surviving as they did this early exercise in ethnic cleansing.

  150. Fred Orth says:

    Fred (Midwest), Ethnic cleansing is one of those “darker side of man” issues that, to my knowledge, has occured in every culture and is a negative side to the heritage of all nations. This does not deminish the sufferings of the Acadians, but it puts it into prespective.

  151. Fred (Midwest) – not only do I know about Evangéline, but my family was thrice deported for being French and Catholic. Once from Acadie in 1755, and twice from Miquelon, in 1778 and 1793. Acadien de souche, mais Français par la force de l’histoire.

  152. @Fred Orth,  I agree totally.
    Prehaps these gentlemen have not heard of Rwanda.  I hear the Rwandan independent commission has indicated  certain “persons”. 

    Knowing their deep strong feelings about genocides I am sure these gentlemen here will be doing everything in their power to bring those accused to trial in the Rwandan case.

  153. It is always a source of amazement to me how some people cling to “victimhood” long after or rather centuries after the transgression had occurred. 

    Being part Irish, I know my Irish ancestors didn’t have such a great time when they got off the boat,  discrimination and virluent racism against the Irish was the norm in those days but I don’t wallow in self pity or claim victimhood & dwell on past injustices for things that happened centuries ago.  I live in the present .

  154. @Jocoul
    Thanks again for the sermon.
    Your troll mode has been duly noted .  I see that you have switched it off now. Thats a shame just when I was beginng to enjoy the show.

    it’s not about swallowing, it’s about having an open discussion, freed from cliches, prejudices and taboos.
    Oh you mean cliches like “US domination” ?  Prehaps you should have a discussion with your German friends about what the Poles say about German domination? Prehaps not that may sound like a “cliche” and we can’t have that can we? LOL

    Thanks also for your enlightened observation that the US media is also biased. Who knew? All this time I thought God himself was ghosting all those news articles in the US media.

  155. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[Prehaps these gentlemen have not heard of Rwanda.  I hear the Rwandan independent commission has indicated  certain “persons”.
    Knowing their deep strong feelings about genocides I am sure these gentlemen here will be doing everything in their power to bring those accused to trial in the Rwandan case.]]
    Another negative “fact” about France by trollie. It apparently knows no other kind.
    And a favorite among French-haters too alongside such “facts” as “The French were in bed with Saddam” or “The French long for their past glory”
    With no intentions of trolling of course and starting another flame war…
    The funniest thing about all this is that trollie still pretends it has no clue why people are not being so nice to it.
    Strike that.
    The funniest thing about all this is that trollie is now bringing up anti-French “facts” every time it reads something it doesn’t like about American or British history. The very thing it blew a casket about for about 50 posts and which prompted it to call us fascists and start its trolling campaign.
    Its hypocrisy and retardedness knows apparently no bounds.
    [[ I live in the present .]]

    Trolling on an anti French-bashing blog out of the goodness of its heart.

  156. Marc @ Miquelon.org says:

    @sharon wrote “It is always a source of amazement to me how some people cling to “victimhood” long after or rather centuries after the transgression had occurred. Being part Irish, I know my Irish ancestors didn’t have such a great time when they got off the boat,  discrimination and virluent racism against the Irish was the norm in those days but I don’t wallow in self pity or claim victimhood & dwell on past injustices for things that happened centuries ago.  I live in the present .”

    Not sure if that was aimed at me or someone else. If it was aimed at me, I was merely stating historical facts about my family. I am also part Irish and know about the Wexford Rebellion and the subsequent indenture my ancestors took on to cross the Atlantic. Knowing is important. I’m not wallowing in any victim hood nor self-pity, but I know where I’m coming from and although I have great interest in British culture, history and literature, you can safely bet I will never plead allegiance to HRM nor any of her descendants.

    “Forgive yes, forget, hell no!”

    I find it somewhat amusing that someone who’s come here to lecture us on anti-Americanism or anti-British comments stemming from the historical record and its interpretation now tells us we’re not to dwell on past injustices and to live in the present.

  157. Well, if you won’t pledge allegiance to the Crown which also happens to be the head of state of your country, than you definitely haven’t “forgiven” yet as you claim.

  158. sharon, you can accuse the people of anything and you seem to fully enjoy (sic)this right but so far you ve written around 50 posts in this discussion which account for nearly a third of the posts over 26 days…..

    Either you re very interested in the discussion and being constructive either in the opposite case (i.e. you re just a plain troll) people are quite tolerant of your presence.

    on a side note, get a life

  159. Fred Orth says:

    Sharon, France, and its’ overseas territories, are not under HRM, or any Crown other than their own in their own past. Please check your atlas for St -Pierre and Miquelon. I guess, though, you could consider the occupation as being under individuals who thought of themselves as “kingly”, but, I wouldn’t go there. Population didn’t like it, and those guys got removed.

  160. @ Fred, the address given for Miquelon in this site is Toronto.
    (check below).  I presume you know who the head of state of Canada is?

    Miquelon.org
    27 St Clair Avenue East
    Unit #811
    Toronto, ON, CANADA
    M4T 1L8

  161. Fred Orth says:

    What if I don’t recognize the Treaty of 1763?

  162. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Another gem from trollie.
    A Frenchman who runs a company out of Canada now owes allegiance to Canada’s Head of State.

    Not the sharpest knife in the drawer this trollie…

  163. Marc @ Cormier says:

    Oh no. Never intended to be the subject of the thread. I am a citizen of France and of Canada. I am French because my father’s family is from St Pierre et Miquelon. I am Canadian through my mother, I never had to pledge allegiance to HRM Elizabeth Windsor. I’d much rather pledge allegiance to a flag, or a pole for that matter.

    As a Canadian citizen (of Irish / Scottish origins), I believe in a Republican future for this country as the Crown remains in my eyes the symbol of domination of one culture over others and represents the epitome of inequality through birth. But that is an entire other matter…

  164.  Crown remains in my eyes the symbol of domination of one culture over others

    In the present in the 21st Century?  or was it the past?

    Using the same logic, those who suffered under French imperialism & colonialism in the past  should hold the same views about France  in the present in the 21st Century and view France as a symbol of domination of one cutlure over others even right now ……for what France did many many years ago.

  165. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Trollie chose to compare the British Royal family with the evils of French imperialism because ?

    a) It’s ‘s a troll seeking confrontation and conflict

    b) it suffers from brain defects and never realized its analogy made absolutely no sense

    c) It means well and only brings up yet another negative “fact” about France out of the goodness of its heart.

  166. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    d) it unfortunately couldn’t use the “French involvement in the Rwanda genocide” and “French secret dealings with Saddam Hussein” arguments this time but you know it’s coming.

  167. Difference is, France is no longer the imperial master of millions, and like many of my compatriots, I denounce the ills of Françafrique any chance I get, but you wouldn’t know that despite your preconceived notions about what I do, think and feel. Passons.

    Why does every subject have to be met with an ad-hoc symmetrical counter-argument? The issue I raised briefly is the undemocratic and symbolic domination of the Crown over other cultures. Deal with that issue, take it, look at it, deal with it. That is such a troll-like move.

  168. To Barney @ Post #152:
    [ The funniest thing about all of this is that trollie {Sharon} is now anti-French “facts” everytime it reads anything it doesn’t like about American or British history . . . . . . ].
    Indeed, trollie’s fall-back-be-nice mode pursues the atavistic or feral approach;  i.e.,  her reversion to “nature’s way” in  Stoop to Conquer    speech-strategem that would seize the moment; moreover, said “Stoop To Conquer” mechanically applying [to the female] or definitive in a literal sense by Shakespeare in his Play.

  169. Difference is, France is no longer the imperial master of millions,

    And Britain still is?
    How dumb do you think people are?

    So apparently there is a double standard …..those who suffered under French imperalism in the past should NOT view France as  a symbol of domination of one culture over others in the present,  whereas the Brits still should be viewed as such

    It speaks to the graciousness and generous nature of those whose ancestors suffered French imperialism that the majority of them have indeed “forgiven” France for its past sins. 

    Yes, I know pointing out these unflattering double standards will result in the predictable accusations of trolling etc…yawn. What else can one expect of people of such a nature.

  170. I raised briefly is the undemocratic and symbolic domination of the Crown over other cultures.

    By the way “symbolic domination” is an oxymoron.  There is no such thing,  it is like being  half pregnant.  Either you have domination or you don’t.  Does the Crown have any kind of domination over Canada?  Hell No.

    She is simply a figurehead now.  If Canada told her to go to hell (as you surely would like to), she would be kicked out of her job as head of state of Canada in a second.  Some “domination”  that is.

    Why pretend some kind of domintion of the Crown when none exists? Becasue you can’t admit you haven’t “forgiven” yet as you claim for what happened many many years ago? 

    I am more Irish than you and if anybody suffered from British imperialism it was the Irish, both in Ireland and over here…..yet I don’t hold any greviances. I prefer to live in the present and thankfully most people do, otherwise we would all be like the Balkans.

  171. To Sharon @ Post # 67:
    In other words, if you can’t beat them; then, do join them, an Irish cousin to sell-out-sycophant, Bill O’Reilly of the Fox Network (when did it go from Green to Orange ?). Once again we see the court-jew(ess) in action, using an Anglosphere anvil to beat out her agenda –an agenda most select of conscious; but, we recognize where you are coming from
    and . . . . . . . . . . let the din go on.
    P.S. Being court-jew does not require being Jewish.

  172. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    Trollie’s rants miss the mark completely once again.

    If a French contributor wrote something about how they didn’t like Cricket, trollie, as a great defender of the Anglo sphere, would respond by writing a lengthy rant about the evils of the Napoleonic Wars. If we don’t like baseball, trollie will rave about the Algerian War.

    And yes there is a such a thing as ‘symbolic domination’.
    Canada’s head of state being the Queen of England is a perfect example of that.
    Words have meaning, troll. And the word symbolic has a definition. Look it up.

  173. All that frothing in the mouth ….hmm, must have hit some uncomfortable truths  I haven’t seen such bile and venom in a long time. Probably being obsessed with O’Reilly has made you two more like him than you realize.

  174. “I am more Irish than you” – What a sad comment. Irishness … is not about genetic make-up of the number of chromosomes you can trace back to county Wicklow or how many ancestors died during the battle of Vinegar hill. Being French, Irish or whatever is more than genetics, it’s about experience, heritage and culture.

    You can live in historical amnesia if you wish, and you can put forth the Balkan extreme to discredit my desire to forgive yet not forget, but I still believe the Monarchy – the Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis – is an antiquated and undemocratic concept.

    There is no longer a French King, Emperor or president lording over the Colonies d’Afrique Occidentale as a symbolic head of state. The fact the Queen remains the head of state of Canada is more than symbolism. How many old fogeys have I heard in Ontario, arguing for the banning of the French language because “you lost the war”.

    Will you deny that it was impossible to run for political office in Ontario if you were not a member of the Orange Order into the late seventies? Will you deny that the Monarchist league of Canada no longer exists? Will you deny that the Union Jack is frequently flown over the Parliamentary building of Ontario, will you deny the Union Jack is still part of the provincial flags of many provinces, will you deny the symbolism of the British Monarchy to not me omnipresent in many police and governmental institutions?

    Will you also deny the rampant anti-Americanism that is so present in Ontario?

  175. Once again, trollie Sharon has binged-out on haggis when perhaps it should have been bagles and mullet; so, dear succubus, identify those “uncomfortable truths” that you speculate I might be troubled about or forever hold your peace.  The fact of the matter is that you really have 
    nothing to say in your postings other than  “stomach retchings”  [TOS #3].  Certainly not seen is anything that offers food for thought  –on any subject; for, you posit no depth of background in education or learning.  The question is why do you bother to post at all ?  Are you seeking attention ?  Do you have an axe to grind ?  [TOS #3]
    Why Marc puts up with you   –causing as you do a waste of time, remains to his province; perhaps, having the goods on you as a troll he hopes to iron out a little bit more about the subject and you are his “guest”.

  176. Will you deny that it was impossible to run for political office in Ontario if you were not a member of the Orange Order into the late seventies?

    But we are not living in the seventies are we?
    I rest my case.

  177. « Le coup d’Œil sur l’Histoire, le recul vers une période passée ou, comme aurait dit Racine, vers un pays éloigné, vous donne des perspectives sur votre époque et vous permet d’y penser davantage, d’y voir davantage les problèmes qui sont les mêmes ou les problèmes qui diffèrent ou les solutions à y apporter ». Marguerite Yourcenar

  178. I see that you are a great admirer of Quebec’s language laws.
    Sorry if my English words were the same size as French words.

  179. What does Quebec’s language laws have to do with anything I said. Is this your latest angle? Are you against French language rights outside Quebec? Why do I bother asking you questions, you sidestep most of them anyway.

  180. What I have learned from “sharon” :

    1. One cannot fight discrimination in country P against Q if we don’t also equally denounce anti-P in Q, even if we live in P. Yet sharon has yet to tell us what he/she has done in his/her country of residence to fight anti-Americanism [if he/she is not a resident of the USA … ]. This is known as the Symmetrical Argument.
    2. There is such a thing as collective and perpetual guilt, most notably for the French.
    3. Historical injustices should be forgotten, except those perpetrated by the French.
    4. Historical injustices should also be forgiven, except in the case of the French.
    5. One should live in the present, except the French who should be held to greater self-examination.
    6. One can be more Irish/French/whatever than others based on genetic heritage. Blood trumps culture?
  181. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    [[All that frothing in the mouth ….hmm, must have hit some uncomfortable truths ]]

    Oh yeah sure. A joke like you defending the HMQ. I’m so offended. lol

    [[Yet sharon has yet to tell us what he/she has done in his/her country of residence to fight anti-Americanism [if he/she is not a resident of the USA … ].]]

    It would be even funnier to ask it what it has done to fight anti-French sentiments in its country.

  182. Marc @ Miquelon says:

    And now for the coup de grâce – which incidentally is not pronounced “coup de gras”. We also don’t say “bone appeteet” nor do we say “déja vou”.

    From Wikipedia’s pages on logical fallacies.

    Tu quoque, from Latin for “You, too” or “You, also”) is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent’s position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.

    Two wrongs make a right is a logical fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that if one wrong is committed, another wrong will cancel it out. Like many fallacies, it typically appears as the hidden major premise in an enthymeme—an unstated assumption which must be true for the premises to lead to the conclusion. This is an example of an informal fallacy.

  183. What I have learned from this blog

    1)  French bashing is bad but American/British bashing is ok.

    2) Non-French persons should express outrage over French bashing but the French do not have to express any outrage over bashing of other countries.

    3) And furthermore non-French persons should fight French bashing wherever they reside, while the French do not have to fight American/British bashing in their country of residence.

    4) The British (and Americans) are forever guilty of any injustices committed centuries ago while the French are not and furthermore even mere discussion of past French injustices is "bashing".

    5) Past French injustices committed centuries ago during its imperial heyday should be forgiven and hopefully forgotten and never mentioned, whereas British imperial sins should never be forgiven or forgotten and talked about as if it just happened yesterday.

  184. @Marc

    You have been hinting quite frequently where I reside.
    I know you know where I reside from my IP address, but as I understood from your own words "email will not be published".  I guess there are other ways of getting around that promise.

  185. Marc @ Miquelon.org says:

    Sharon, I’ve been hinting at your location because of certain colloquialisms as well as comments about Quebec, Canada etc. No emails will be published ever.

  186. Ok, thats good to know.

    Anyway,  sorry if you took my remarks about Quebec’s language laws the wrong way.  When you replied back in French,  I (mistakenly) thought that was your way of showing disapproval of my writing in English.  No, I understood what you said but your sudden switch of languages threw me for a loop.

  187. Barney hasn't left the building says:

    #180

    broken record much, trollie.

    1) This is a French-bashing blog. Main concern = French bashing. Deal with it.
    Stop whining.  What you call American/British bashing on this blog are just histrionics thrown right back at the trolls who come here to lecture us out of the goodness of their hearts.
    And it pales in comparison with real French-bashing which consists of  well documented ethnic slurs such as the French are cowards, dirty, lazy etc.
    You’ll rarely see a French person start the histrionics throwing or bash the American/British out of the blue. That’s  a fact.

    2)If you don’t care about French-bashing then your presence on an anti-French blog is de facto suspicious. How’d you wind up here by the way ?
    See 1) about American/British bashing.

    3) French or non French people don’t have to do anything. But if you’re gonna contribute to an anti French-bashing blog, then of course you are expected to at least care about the issue. If you only come here to complain about British/American British, then that makes you obviously a troll.

    4) As miquelon has said. People shouldn’t be held perpetually guilty of past crimes committed by their ancestors. French, British Americans or otherwise. The rest is conjecture on your part.
    See 1) about American/British bashing.

    5) You have come up with a completely imaginary scenario there.
    Anyway see 4) and 1).

    Your post #180 summarizes your entire contribution to miquelon.org.
    You are entitled to your opinion, however misguided it might be.
    I think we got it by now.

    So If you got nothing else to contribute. Will you finally leave ?

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